Ahira's Hangar

Lord Luof (0r whatever you decide to call yourself here at the Hangar ),

You and I both believe that something exists without having been created. There's no possibility of that not being the case. You believe that it cannot be this reality - where unimaginable amounts of time are thought to have been sufficient for various things to develop. You believe that the uncreated thing must be an infinitely more complicated thing - your God.

I believe that either is just as possible as the other. Living in a reality that seems driven by cause & effect (*nod to the Merovingian* lol), it doesn't make sense to me that anything could exist without a cause. But, obviously, something does. I definitely believe that the universe exists, since it is a fact by every definition of fact. I also believe that there are some things that suggest the existence of a cause for the universe, even an intelligent creator. Sort of the way certain things suggest the existence of dark matter. I don't see enough things to absolutely convince me, but I can't rule it out either.

However, I don't see any evidence of any sort that suggest any specific creator. Meaning the one that you believe in, or the one Hindus believe in, or the Vikings, etc. ____________
Highdrake's mastery of spells and sorcery was not much greater than his pupil's, but he had clear in his mind the idea of something very much greater, the wholeness of knowledge. And that made him a mage.<i></i>

- The Bible speaks of a great flood. There are legends of a great flood in more than 500 cultures around the world. Here’s a webpage I got in a simple search from Google on that subject:
www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/....asp?ID=62

- There are the other evidences which I related to on the other forum, the size & distance of the moon, the exacting temperature because of the size & distance of the sun, the fact that people do not say Confucius Dammit or Muhammad! as power words of cursing.

- You can examine the other religions and see that none of them have a living savior, they’re all dead. But Jesus defeated death & lives.

- I’m sure you’ve heard of Adam & Eve. It makes sense that God created them as adults, probably on levels of genius that would shame Einstein, and yet they still fell from grace. Never mind that, the proof that they were created lay in the fact that we don’t make much sense to have evolved from apes in the first place. Apes are strong creatures, adept at living in the wilderness, family-oriented, intelligent, and masters of survival. For an ape to become less strong, less resistant to the elements by losing their fur, to become a creature that would make war on its own, to build atomic bombs, to rape and meditate on murderous plans, to be selfish & not know their own neighbors, this makes no sense. Also, among all the primates, humans have the largest penises and women do not go into heat. Sex is not just for reproduction for us. Among all the creatures of the world, it is also for pleasure and bonding a man and wife in marriage.

- Take a look at good & evil. What other creature kills its own species for pleasure? What other animal lies? What other creature has far more than it will ever need? How is it that evolution would allow for human beings which have the capacity to destroy all life with its nuclear weapons to ever exist at all? How is it that the dolphins & other sea creatures of high intelligence have not dominated their territories, while we dominate everything on the land?

Those are some things which I think of as proofs. It makes no sense for a creature to lie, cheat, or steal. An evolutionary benefit isn’t there for such selfishness. If the moon was not in orbit, then the tidal forces would not pull life around so extraordinarily well. Without a moon as large as our moon, the corals, planktons, fish, turtles, and all kinds of creatures would not benefit from the tides. I seem to recall something about the moon’s size that causes the earth to wobble on its axis, permitting more of the earth to be usable for life instead of 12 months of winter every year in the north & south and summer only along the lands along the equator. Uranus is on its edge, so that its north pole faces the sun, a great waste of most of its surface. I consider that other planets have such extremely inhospitable atmospheres; terrains of ice, molten rock, and liquid or gases. The winds of Jupiter are hundreds of miles per hour. Mars has dust storms which cover the entire planet. The temperature of Neptune is almost absolute zero. Mercury is 900 degrees during the day and -300 at night. But everything on earth is nearly perfect for life. The amount of water, the evaporation processes, the size & distance of the sun & moon, the axis, the rotation speed, the percentages of elements in the atmosphere, the stability of the crust, the stability of the weather, the magnetic field, the ozone layer, the way in which the food chain works so that bees help plants, plants help animals, so on and so forth, so that everything depends on everything, fish to plankton to bears to ants to peas to single-celled organisms. One thing out of place, the moon not being there would drastically change the perfection of the world. Another million miles closer or further from the sun and we would have temperatures of 130 degrees in the summer for the lower United States. The same with the exact size of the sun: change it only a little & the effects are discernable. The planets only equal 0.135% of the total solar system, the sun equals all the rest. There are too many exact perfections to believe that the world is simply a design of chance. Even if it were, then you would still require hundreds of millions of protein molecules of a precise configuration to spontaneously occur on earth. It is estimated that for just one of these molecules to occur spontaneously in nature it would require roughly 10 to the 600th power billions of years. And I find that far, far more unbelievable than simply believing in a God.
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Yes we are in a very good place! Thank God! (and my penis is going to bed feeling much better about itself! ) *****
Before, you are wise; after, you are wise. In between you are otherwise.
Fravashi saying (from the formularies of Osho the Fool) <i></i>

Well, Danlo... I don't understand, but... I guess... I'm happy for your penis. ? As happy as I can be, anyway... for another guy's...


And welcome Luof! Thanks for posting!

I'll try to walk a fine line on these kinds of conversations. On the one hand, I have no reason to want to change your mind about your belief. I'm in favor of people finding all the happiness and peace they can, by whatever path. As long as nobody tries to hurt anybody else, I don't feel the need to make them change their beliefs.

However, I think it's great for us to all get to know what each other's beliefs, and how we think. That's my main goal.
I guess I'll just say this-

It's conceivable that things could be different. The physical characteristics that you list make the specific types of life that we know possible, and any changes to those characteristics would make those types of life impossible. But we have no reason to believe that, if things were different, no life of any type would be possible. And actually, if there was no life whatsoever anywhere, I doubt the universe would feel deprived.

And now that you're here, maybe you could post occasionally? Maybe others of the same, or other, beliefs will join in. Religion is a gigantic part of humanity, and I'd like to see people talking about it more. It seems people only celebrate their beliefs in church, and I don't think that needs to be the case.

____________
Highdrake's mastery of spells and sorcery was not much greater than his pupil's, but he had clear in his mind the idea of something very much greater, the wholeness of knowledge. And that made him a mage.<i></i>

Fist wrote:
And actually, if there was no life whatsoever anywhere, I doubt the universe would feel deprived

Well if that were true self contemplation wouldn't exist to begin with and the concept of the (a) universe would never have achieved any meaning.

And I don't understand what you don't understand-I got two PM's at KW this morning from women laughing themselves silly about my above comment. But then again they were women, obvisously my point was I no longer have to fear envy from any other primate species. And that's a new part of my "ego's" new meditation: complete disregard and no resistence to the overwhelming dialy onslaught of Viagra and growth-spurt pill email.

Anyway-do you two feel you have something in common with your views? I feel that what has resulted from whatever chance or design, in the universal scheme of things, is so incredibly cool that I cannot possibly concieve of some fantastic intellegence not behind it all. It could be a god or it could be we are a bunch of silly little gods who are very good artists and role-players. It could be stuff I can't even imagine...

I am anti-organised religion for a number of reasons and follow my own path. I am satisfied with many aspects of my beliefs-and the most important aspect is openmindedness: therefore my beliefs can be subject to change. Sometimes my ego thinks I've got it all together and that others would be wise to listen, but that's presumptous and lacks humility and humility (I would like to think) is a key element in any hope for my personal growth. So I don't impose on anyone and respect any and all paths that do not include violence.
*****
Before, you are wise; after, you are wise. In between you are otherwise.
Fravashi saying (from the formularies of Osho the Fool) <i>Edited by: danlo60 at: 11/6/03 11:32 am
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Oops! Boy do I feel like a clone! Let me explain... I get up at 6:30am, and leave for work at 7:30. In that hour, I, among other things:
-get breakfast
-get ready
-make my son's lunch for school
-check the Watch and here as much as I can.
My response this morning was the result of skimming Luof's post, rather than a thorough reading. I've read it now, but, since I have no intention of trying to pick apart the things he thinks of as proofs, I didn't need to know them all at the time. Unfortunately, one of the things I missed was that bit about human males being the most well-endowed of all primates. (Although I don't know how that applies to you, Danlo. ROFLMAO!!! )

Danlo wrote:
"Anyway-do you two feel you have something in common with your views?"
I assume you mean Luof and me? If so, I'm sure we could find various things in common, despite having arrived at them by different paths. For example, neither of us believes ourselves to be perfect. ____________
Highdrake's mastery of spells and sorcery was not much greater than his pupil's, but he had clear in his mind the idea of something very much greater, the wholeness of knowledge. And that made him a mage.<i></i>

I'm just glad my ideas are welcome somewhere. <i></i>

As long as I'm in charge of the Fravashi District, your ideas are more than welcome. I think we should take joy in each others' joy, even if we don't follow the same path that led to the other's joy. If that all makes sense. Also, getting to know others - understanding what they believe and how they think - seems like a good idea. "Because the more I know of you, the better I will know what to expect fro you in times of peril. Or because an understanding of your world may teach me to treat you rightly. Or because I have asked the question in simple friendship." ____________
Highdrake's mastery of spells and sorcery was not much greater than his pupil's, but he had clear in his mind the idea of something very much greater, the wholeness of knowledge. And that made him a mage.<i></i>