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Ahira's Hangar • View topic - Duchess's Latro Log - tons of spoilers!

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 Post subject: Re: Duchess's Latro Log - tons of spoilers!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 12:42 am 
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Nice links Duchess and great point about the werewolf.

******************************************
Possible spoiler if you haven't finished Soldier of the Mist
******************************************




I know wolves, lycanthropy and shape changing in general seem to be a recurring theme in Wolfe's stories.

I finished Soldier of the Mist last night and the werewolf/change theme makes me wonder about Eurykles. He, unless I misunderstood, changes into or always was Draikana. Latro is capable of seeing this creature for what it is--a lamia. I'm not sure if this is similar to his ability to see Gods, or if there is some other significance. Perhaps Latro has some connection with shapechangers.

I've read that some conjecture that Latro himself is a werewolf. I can see some metaphorical similarities with a creature affected by cycles or a shapeshifting being. He undergoes a transformation every evening with his lost memory. He suffered a mysterious head wound and was profoundly changed afterwards. He experiences unexplained fits of rage (or at least battle fury) when provoked. I'm not convinced, however, that he is truly a werewolf.

I'm going to start Soldier of Arete tonight--I've yet to read that one! <i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: Duchess's Latro Log - tons of spoilers!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:38 am 
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I think I am just a couple of chapters behind you in my reread. I am finally starting to feel a little better and actually got to read some today (I cannot deal with Wolfe unless I am mentally sharp ).

The impression I have of Eurykles was that he is some sort of transgender person rather than a straightforwardly gay man.

The most realistic way of looking at his transformation is that Latro somehow merely sees Eurykles' inner being, which is female.

However, since the whole story deals with the supernatural, it is quite possible that the Lamia comes to possess Eurykles with his full consent and knowledge and transforms him with his full consent.


But I could be completely wrong about these, and Wolfe usually loads a couple of meanings (at least!) into everything, so...

I'm not sure I understand how Latro could be seen as a werewolf. Transformation due to memory loss, yes. Battle rage, yes. But if he turned into a wolf, wouldn't one of his friends say something or notice something? ******************************************************

Our lives are the songs that sing the universe into existence.~David Zindell
<i>Edited by: Duchess of Malfi at: 10/1/06 9:56 pm
</i>


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 Post subject: duchess's Latro log - millions of spoilers!!!!!
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:48 am 
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Here is a map and a bit about Thrace:
www.athenapub.com/thrcmap.htm

and here is a bit about real world warrior women from southern Russia:
www.archaeology.org/9701/abstracts/sarmatians.html

Perhaps women from this or a related tribe inspired the Greek myths and stories about the Amazons. <i>Edited by: Duchess of Malfi at: 10/1/06 10:00 pm
</i>


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 Post subject: Re: duchess's Latro log - millions of spoilers!!!!!
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 1:40 pm 
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Eurykles was completely a man until, I think, the end of the first book. Then Latro encounters the Huntress again when he banishes the demon/poltergeist/whatever from the villagers house (rights the 3-sided idol thing and propitiates, IIRC). In return, he's supposed to share a drink that had been poisoned/snaked by the Huntress with a person that he's to know by a sign... which happens to be Eurykles. Then Eurykles' transformation starts gradually, at first just looking womanish, expressing an interest in the Spartan officer (meanwhile, confiding in Latro about past homosexual dalliances... saying that the Spartan can be swayed that way). I believe the Spartan officer died (not the same one who was poisoned by the snake Latro saw attack him, but Drakaina said was a poisoned pin she kept in her hair) about the same time that Drakaina tried to seduce Latro (wearing nothing but a snakeskin belt, I think, but having all woman parts... perhaps an illusion that would be undone if the belt was removed?), so after a while, the only person who knows that Drakaina used to be a man is Io.

Basically, I think Eurykles was just an effete charlatan until the Huntress changed him. ________________
I wanna feel the metamorphosis and cleansing I've endured within my shadow. Change is coming. Now is my time. Listen to my muscle memory. Contemplate what I've been clinging to. -Tool, "Forty-Six & Two" <i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: duchess's Latro log - millions of spoilers!!!!!
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 6:21 pm 
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That is a nice summary, Syl. But how and why does Io alone still know that he was once a man? After awhile Latro only sees him as a beautiful woman and of course, does not rememebr that he was once a man at all.

******************************************************

Our lives are the songs that sing the universe into existence.~David Zindell
<i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: duchess's Latro log - millions of spoilers!!!!!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:06 am 
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Nice Syl. For some reason I never put the pieces together. The Huntress says something to the effect of "there's one travelling with you who is sworn to me...therefore he is mine to do with as I choose." You're right, it's after Eurykles drinks the wine with the little snake in it that Latros starts to see him as a woman.

Eurykles poisons Basias in the tent of Pausanias with what she calls a pin. The healer swears it was a viper bite.



I think that since Io knew Eurykles longer than the others and since she pretty much witnessed the transformation, she's probably the only one who truly knows who Drainkania is.
Pausanias and Pasicrates seem to know--at least the impression I get is that they sort of give her these odd glances as if to say something isn't right about her. I'm not convinced that they are in the dark about her true nature, but I don't think they ever actually speak of it (as I believe Io does at one point.) <i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: duchess's Latro log - millions of spoilers!!!!!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:48 am 
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I was thinking that the little snake was probably the spirit of a lamia which comes to possess him after the drink (with his full inner consent) - which would explain the poisoned pin, the snake skin, the transformation, what happens when he dies -- but perhaps it was a magic spell from the goddess instead?

I finished reading today, but will be back here in a little while after I do a bit of online research of bits towards the end of the book. ******************************************************

Our lives are the songs that sing the universe into existence.~David Zindell
<i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: duchess's Latro log - millions of spoilers!!!!!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 5:41 am 
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how the ancients saw the Spartans:
www.e-classics.com/lycurgus.htm

more modern thoughts on Spartans and their use of terror:
www.jameslaxer.com/2006/08/on-terror.html

the event (or one like it) that put Latro into a depression:
www.anti-rev.org/textes/VidalNaquet92b/part-1.html

pythian games:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythian_Games

centaurs:
homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/CENTAURS.html

byblos:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byblos

sidon:
www.middleeast.com/sidon.htm

Phoenicians (red cloaks)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia

******************************************************

Our lives are the songs that sing the universe into existence.~David Zindell
<i>Edited by: Duchess of Malfi at: 10/2/06 11:18 pm
</i>


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 Post subject: Re: duchess's Latro log - millions of spoilers!!!!!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:15 am 
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Great links Duchess. I especially enjoyed the Spartan history link.

I think you're right about the lamia and the curse. The huntress' curse was the lamia.

Speaking of Eurykles, I really thought the end of book one was terrific. I actually pitied Eurykles as he lay dying on the battlefield muttering for his mother.

Earlier I mentioned werewolves. The wolf the goddess mentioned to Latro kills Eurykles. Latro not only sees that the wolf has a broken back, but he also sees its true nature--it is a werewolf. The man/wolf calls Latro a brother. I suppose the werewolf crowd might insist the means Latro is also a werewolf, but personally I think it simply has something to do with both the wolf's and Latro's ties with the goddess. <i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: duchess's Latro log - millions of spoilers!!!!!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:20 pm 
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I'd assumed it was the same guy from earlier in the book... the one from the Europa (who convinced Latro to help him kill the werewolf, though I think it was actually the guy himself who was the werewolf). Didn't they exchange some kind of vow of brotherhood that night? ________________
I wanna feel the metamorphosis and cleansing I've endured within my shadow. Change is coming. Now is my time. Listen to my muscle memory. Contemplate what I've been clinging to. -Tool, "Forty-Six & Two" <i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: duchess's Latro log - millions of spoilers!!!!!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:55 pm 
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Yeah, I think you're right Syl. I re-read the chapters with Oior the bowman and he definitely is a Neurian. Latro doesn't see his wolf form, but he does see another side of him that is scholarly beyond common men and corrupt. He also avoids Latro's eyes because he knows that his true nature will be revealed.

After Oior saves Latro's life they do exhange a vow of brotherhood.

I have to remind myself that Wolfe can't be read quickly! I've got to pace myself otherwise I'll be clueless when the next Latro book comes out. <i></i>


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 3:22 pm 
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Hey I know I'm bumping up a topic more than a year old but I thought I'd give my impression on the whole Eurakles/Drakaina thing. Eurykles starts out completely a man. When he drinks the snake, he is still a man but the spirit of the lamia Drakaina possesses him. Everyone still sees him as a man though--except Latro of course who can see gods and mystical beasts. That's why he calls Eurakles a woman and everyone laughs at him. However, once Latro touches Eurakles in the scene where Drakaina seduces Latro, everyone is suddenly able to see Drakaina (since touching a god or whatever allows them to be seen).


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 5:26 pm 
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Do not worry about bumping up an old topic! That is fine! Thank you for your thoughts, and welcome to the Hangar! :D 8) :wave:

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:11 pm 
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