Ahira's Hangar

Stephen Donaldson--a writer with a unique, but captivating to some, style. In the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, he uses sorrow,despair, and alienation to describe Thomas Covenant and his journey to the mystical Land, a place where he is a hero-to-be in the minds of its inhabitants. He is to destroy Lord Foul, oppressor of the Land, and a dark demon with infinite power. These people think Covenant's presence in the Land is a promise for salvation that he cannot keep.
Thomas Covenant, and Linden Avery in the Second Chronicles Chronicles, receive a lot of speculation and thought about their conflicts, to the extent where some cannot stand it, which turns a lot of people off from the series.
Question: do you think SRD spent too much time on TC and LA, too little on the supporting cast re: Mhoram, Sunder, etc., or both? Feel free to talk about anything else TCTC here! Hello, and good-bye, as always.

Further up, and further in<i></i>

I appreciate this topic Mhoram! I've seen alot of reaction, most of it good, 2 the Chornicles in my Web travels. But it kinda irks me when I see people say it's either 2 intense or the rape scene stops them cold. (b back!)
And now Danlo looked in that direction, too. He remembered that snowy owls mate in the darkest part of deep winter, and so along with this beautiful white bird perched in a tree a hundred feet away, he turned to face the sea as he watched and waited.

Ahira, Ahira, he called out silently to the sky. Ahira, Ahira<i></i>

It really irks me when someone complains about the rape scene in LFB then turns around and says that he or she reads Sword of Truth books by Terry Goodkind. It's like "Excuse me! Do you know how many rape/torture/ S&M scenes are in THAT?"
Hello! <i></i>

It is just those things that made TCTC different from other SciFi/Fantasy books, for me. The rape scene is necessary to the story and, I have to give it to SRD, it was done as tastefully as possible for such an ugly act. <i></i>

Well, alot of that wouldn't have been possible if SRD hadn't done his stuff in the 1st place!

2nd of all: What I was going 2 say, b4 the Lady Tamara hauled me away is that--God take in2 consideration the whole sweep of the Land, that's what we're talking about here!!! TC gives us migranes! Yes we can all relate 2 it 4 a while and then in the midst of all transformation=the rape scene. But this scene means SO much! There is more going on here than in any piece of literature u will ever find! OK, it's very heavy duty, a rape is a rape the girl is 16. Not only is this a very serious wake-up call 4 Thomas Covenant, but it is also a very serious wake-up call4 u the reader: "oh god I'm now reading a real adult fantasy" with an anti-hero thrown in 2 boot.... Indeed this is, sadly, a story built 4 the "world-wise" or those w/hard edged skin. A fundamental question of ethics...

A beggars note. Ethics in a dream, hallucination, imagination...no that will kill u. SRD is basically saying "here's an intense trip, alright.." "where do u go when the lights go out?"
And now Danlo looked in that direction, too. He remembered that snowy owls mate in the darkest part of deep winter, and so along with this beautiful white bird perched in a tree a hundred feet away, he turned to face the sea as he watched and waited.

Ahira, Ahira, he called out silently to the sky. Ahira, Ahira<i></i>

The rape scene is a very bothersome thing. I have always been grateful that Donaldson didn't go into greater detail with it. Up until that point, I suspect that many readers (such as myself) feel a great sympathy for TC and all he has endured in the real world. Yes, Danlo, that scene IS a huge wake up call!

Mhoram, your opening post is a great one! You've nailed a lot of the problems that many readers/potential readers have with this series right on the head (you must have been reading some of the same posts I've been reading over at Ran's board). A lot of people do have problems reading this series because of all of the introspection done by TC and LA. Well, the people who complain about it invariably call it whining. I've always thought it to add a deep layer of characterization to the books. Most authors do not go so deeply into their character's heart, heads, and souls. And lets face it, people who have endured lives as difficult as those faced by these two major characters will not necessarily have thoughts and emotions filled with sweetness and light. These two people are haunted by demons.

It is a testament to Donaldson's skill as a writer that some of the minor characters like Foamfollower and Mhoram and Bannor come springing to life and take on such important dimensions in the story. Who wouldn't want more of them? They are the outright "good guys" in the story, the ones we can have faith in after we lose some of our faith in TC after he rapes a child. They are the voice of sanity and morality in a world where TC has no compass, where he is losing his mind and his way. Besides in being interesting and wonderful characters in their own right, they each represent what is best about TC himself. Foamy is his creativity and laughter, Bannor is his strength and ability to stay true to Vows and to what he believes in. Mhoram is his essential goodness, compassion, humanity. Ankh-Morpork people considered that spelling was a sort of optional extra. They believed in it the same way they believed in punctuation; it didn't matter where you put it, so long as it was there.~Terry Pratchett<i></i>

A lot of TCTC criticism does come from AOIAF, thats where I heard a lot of complaints.
Duchess, your post led me to think about some things...one being the fact that if TC and LA's thoughts, respectively, had had happy thoughts, then no one would have cared or asked for more from the minor characters. Hello, and good-bye, as always.

Further up, and further in<i></i>

Mhoram, if you think people sometimes slam Donaldson and HIS characters over there, you should go into the actual Martin forums and see how many people (often the same ones) slam some of Martin's characters. And for the same reasons. One of the characters often slammed is this woman whose life centers around her husband and family. Well, one by one she starts losing those people, so she grieves and is sad a lot of the time, as would be expected. But a lot of readers talk about how much they actually HATE this poor woman. And they just don't seem to understand that she represents an entire world of sad, grieving people who have lost husbands or lovers or children or brothers or sisters or mothers or daughtes or fathers in the horrible civil war that has engulfed the realm. They just want to read about the exciting battles, political intrigue, etc. and don't want to think about the aftermath. Martin is an incredible world builder, and includes people you don't normally see, like this grieving woman -- but an awful lot of people just complain "I don't like her. She's a whiny bitch." and "I don't like Donaldson. His characters whine." Ankh-Morpork people considered that spelling was a sort of optional extra. They believed in it the same way they believed in punctuation; it didn't matter where you put it, so long as it was there.~Terry Pratchett<i></i>

there are so many little people out there who just dont see the important stuff .. they just want to be entertained .. with sex action and intrigue .. real life pathos they have no time for .. that is what intrigues me about SRD .. he had the courage to touch upon so many real life dilemas .. not that leperosy is a real life common dilema .. but there are many stigmatised illnesses .. and it represents how little empathy we really exhibit for people who are not whole and healthy ..

the real life human feelings TC felt when his senses were stimulated by the hurtloam .. the sting of arousal .. was so very human .. the rape scene wasnt about the ethical rights and wrongs of forcing oneself upon another sexually .. it was about .. what was real .. real to TC at the time .. all fantasise .. yet we persecute TC for engaging in a fantasy that to his misfortune turned out to be a reality ..

a reality if he had known .. he would never had acted thus ..

so many issues .. christianity .. among the small towners .. the biggoted views they held to .. the way they despised TC because he had the misfortune to be ill .. leper-ill .. there fear .. which is the anti-thesis of faith .. interesting isnt that?? turned them into fiendishly uncharitable neighbours ..

And who is my neighbour?? asked the Jew .. when Christ told of the Good Samaritan .. who indeed??

these scenes smack of the religious intolerance we view in our daily lives .. that wars are fought over .. SRD is a brave author .. he was not afraid to address these and so many other issues ..

He deserves only praise .. at least in my book .. 'Smoke me a kipper .. I'll be back for breakfast!

'health and healing<i></i>

Donaldson's Land itself is probably my true favorite character. Some have compared the Land 2 Middle Earth, but I just don't get the connection. Yes both r great conceptions, but 2 me the Land has it's own personality: it IS a character: it is a living breathing thing! It has it own healing power it's own magic and lifeblood (Earthblood!). It goes through mood-swings--It can b tortured (TWL) it can b skitzo (TOT) Andelain is almost like it's heart beating! It can react--like the remnants of the One Forest getting all grumpy--heck even the leaves stains on clothes in Morimoss were signs the Land itself was trying 2 talk 2 TC!

The Land is so organic, beautiful and true! There is power graven in every rock... There's a topic about female hotties @ KW but no one's mentioned The Land itself there! The Land, 2 me, has a female Gaia spirit and is truly beautiful and sexy. When I began The Gap Saga--I said, thinking back 2 TWL, dang--Donaldson has finally come out and done the obvious! Morn Hyland is the personification of the mercilessly tortured Land in the 2nd Chrons!

The difference between our own Gaia spirit, in reality, and the Land's boils down 2, who was it w/Mhoram or Salty?, Any way when TC talks 2 whomever about our world he uses the word "scenery" I always thought SRD was teaching us a fantasic spiritual and ecological lesson there. That we have become so socially conditioned and dis-passionate that we have almost totally lost the magical, organic and spiritual connection 2 our Mother Earth! The mere use of simply the word "scenery" is AWESOME it's like a traditional Native American howling like a rapid wolf!!! SRD makes lots of subtle "wake up" calls in the Chrons--un42nately not that many pick up on them...

1st the s then Mother Earth, what's this world coming 2...
And now Danlo looked in that direction, too. He remembered that snowy owls mate in the darkest part of deep winter, and so along with this beautiful white bird perched in a tree a hundred feet away, he turned to face the sea as he watched and waited.

Ahira, Ahira, he called out silently to the sky. Ahira, Ahira<i></i>

The Land as a character, hmm just might work! I mean, the Land is in conflict, whether it be with the Sunbane, or Lord Foul it has to fight for itself. Then, it's made up of things like Sarangrave Flat, Morinmoss, Fangorn, and the other forests! The Land is awesome! Further up, and further in!<i></i>

I absolutely agree with you danlo!! I have always had that conception of the Land!! and quite naturally I share you love of its reality!

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I think the problem people have with TCTC is that Donaldson is unafraid to illustrate the introspective side of his characters - the ugly side. Let's face it. We are human beings who sometimes have very ugly and dark thoughts and impulses. Most of us do not show even our closest family and friends this side of ourselves for fear of judgement, retribution, and desertion.

For this reason I think people are uncomfortable with these books. They don't want to admit, even to themselves, that under similar circumstances they may act the same. Everyone wants to think that they would turn into Indiana Jones and defeat evil! Well, I feel that SRD's version of things may be a lot more accurate than most people would like to believe. <i></i>

Ya, TCTC characters aren't exactly the perfect Disneyesque people we see on TV! Further up, and further in!<i></i>

yes I think you are right caamora!

I think that ranks way up there in the top 10 reasons people dont like TCTC

I think people do want simple easily identifiable evils .. Mhorams' description of disney-esqueness if you will .. the concept of an anti-hero who faces myriad ethical dilemas muddys the waters too much!

Like you I like this aspect of SRD's writing .. I like that his characters .. particularly TC and LA .. suedo-average Joe's with muddy histories .. which to me makes them that more credible 'Smoke me a kipper .. I'll be back for breakfast!

'health and healing<i></i>