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 Post subject: Prince Julian - what do you think of him
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:00 pm 
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In old "Endless Shadows" many characters had his own thread. So continuing this tradition I made a thread about Julian. Some time ago on another list the problem whether Julian's signs of loyalty to Eric and then to Random (he was the first to express his loyalty) were caused by the fact he liked being in good retationships with any power and liked doing a carrier or by his loyalty to Amber. So is he (as the whole positive or negative to you?).I like him, his loyalty to Amber especiallyI don't like him. Eric was right to say "Julian. I spit upon"He had some good and bad features -more or less equalOther answersShow results "Damn you, Luke. You always make the stupidest things sound sort of attractive."
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 Post subject: Re: Prince Julian - what do you think of him
PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 12:05 am 
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I like Julian very much. He was, like Benedict was, something of a horse of a different color from the others, if you will. He was icy cold, sarcastic, dry, isolated in his "fortress of solitude" - the Forest of Arden, which he had mastered.

He was one of the most dynamic characters in the series (something, btw, I felt the first series had more than the second - one of the reasons I prefer the first) - i.e, he changed the most. He was always cold, sarcastic, etc. as I have said. But...he lightened up to Corwin, and accepted him as a brother and a friend; both for, IMO, personal reasons and out of loyalty to Amber.

He draws parallels to Gerard in his undying loyalty to Amber. Would he have betrayed Amber to Chaos like Brand? Never. Would he have attacked Amber out of spite for a brother like Corwin? He seemed as venemous to Corwin as Corwin was to Eric, but would he have acted thus? I doubt it - he professed loyalty to Oberon, Eric, Corwin, Random, all without being disloyal.

One of my favorite characters. "If we lived in a State where virtue was profitable, common sense would make us good, and greed would make us saintly. And we'd live like animals or angels in the happy land that needs no heroes. But since in fact we see that avarice, anger, envy, pride, sloth, lust, and stupidity commonly profit far beyond humility, chastity, fortitude, justice and thought, and have to choose, to be human at all...why then perhaps we must stand fast a little - even at the risk of being heroes." - Sir Thomas More, "A Man For All Seasons," by Robert Bolt<i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: Prince Julian - what do you think of him
PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 11:25 pm 
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I must say I don't like Julian very much. And my attitude did not change much after re-reading. Although I can understand and even partially justify Eric, it would be difficult forme with Julian. The comparison to Benedict is superficious for me. Both are loyal to Amber, but Benedict is really staying outside of affairs, not taking sides, when Julian is taking the side of the one who is the strongest at the moment. Of course you can argue that the loyalty to the strongest is a good thing, because Amber needs a strong ruler. The only argument indicating that his motivation was not very noble are Eric's words (during his trump conversation with Corwin) "Julian I spit upon." Why did he say so? Did he feel his loyalty is motivated by the will of making a carrier?
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I agree that Julian changes over the books, but did he change very much or rather circumstances were different.

In Merlin's chronicles the only distinct appearance of Julian is in Arden Forest during negotiations with Dalt. Julian shows his obedience to the rules - seeng Vialle's ring refrains from revenge on Luke. True,this is very Julian-like. "Damn you, Luke. You always make the stupidest things sound sort of attractive."
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 Post subject: Re: Prince Julian - what do you think of him
PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 3:00 pm 
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Quote:The comparison to Benedict is superficious for me. Both are loyal to Amber, but Benedict is really staying outside of affairs, not taking sides, when Julian is taking the side of the one who is the strongest at the moment.

Part of my comparison to Benedict is Julian's need for solitude. But I see your point.

Well yes, as you say Amber needs a strong ruler - but he never betrayed any of the rulers, did he? As in, he never betrayed one ruler for the one that was challenging him. It was only after Oberon was gone that he supported Eric; only after Eric was dead did he support Corwin; only after Corwin had abdicated did he support Random.

Quote:I agree that Julian changes over the books, but did he change very much or rather circumstances were different.

Good question. Corwin tends to think Julian changed, and I agree.

Quote:In Merlin's chronicles the only distinct appearance of Julian is in Arden Forest during negotiations with Dalt. Julian shows his obedience to the rules - seeng Vialle's ring refrains from revenge on Luke. True,this is very Julian-like.

Heh. Yes I always liked that scene. "If we lived in a State where virtue was profitable, common sense would make us good, and greed would make us saintly. And we'd live like animals or angels in the happy land that needs no heroes. But since in fact we see that avarice, anger, envy, pride, sloth, lust, and stupidity commonly profit far beyond humility, chastity, fortitude, justice and thought, and have to choose, to be human at all...why then perhaps we must stand fast a little - even at the risk of being heroes." - Sir Thomas More, "A Man For All Seasons," by Robert Bolt<i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: Prince Julian - what do you think of him
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 9:13 pm 
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Quote:Well yes, as you say Amber needs a strong ruler - but he never betrayed any of the rulers, did he?

Actually when he put Eric in power, he realized that Oberon might be still alive. He din not betray Eric, Corwin or Random, it's true. But he also had no opportunity to betray one of those. He would have not benefited from betrayal.

My question is what did Eric mean saying he despised Julian. Did he think his loyalty was not sincere? Or he did not appreciate his abilities or something else? "Damn you, Luke. You always make the stupidest things sound sort of attractive."
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 Post subject: Re: Prince Julian - what do you think of him
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 11:46 pm 
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IMO, Julian had numerous opportunities to betray Eric and Corwin - he could have went over to Corwin when Eric was Regent, or he could have openly opposed Corwin during Corwin's reign as Regent - I bet he could have made himself a coalition against Corwin, supported by a sibling or to. But he did not. What does this say about him?

I think Eric's..."disapproval" of Julian was a combination of a) his extreme dislike of Julian's character and b) doubt of his loyalty. What do you think, Dis? "If we lived in a State where virtue was profitable, common sense would make us good, and greed would make us saintly. And we'd live like animals or angels in the happy land that needs no heroes. But since in fact we see that avarice, anger, envy, pride, sloth, lust, and stupidity commonly profit far beyond humility, chastity, fortitude, justice and thought, and have to choose, to be human at all...why then perhaps we must stand fast a little - even at the risk of being heroes." - Sir Thomas More, "A Man For All Seasons," by Robert Bolt<i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: Prince Julian - what do you think of him
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 8:45 pm 
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I think - the combination of both. Julian had certain features of character no one could like (loosing his temper when defeated in his favourite game - he showd anger to Corwin, but possibly he behaved similarly to the others). But I also think that Eric thought that Julian was loyal to him only because he was the strongest. Maybe he alsodid not like manipulative abilities of Julian. Maybe he felt manipulated, but could do nothing about it. At the end - one more possibility remains (actually the most in favour Julian): Eric refers to the most recent events where Julian was defeated by Corwin and Random. But I think the last hypothesis is least likely.

Quote:IMO, Julian had numerous opportunities to betray Eric and Corwin - he could have went over to Corwin when Eric was Regent, or he could have openly opposed Corwin during Corwin's reign as Regent

He had opportunities, but had no interest. When Corwin escaped it still looked unlikely that Corwin might defeat Eric. Corwin did not like Julian so he was likely to reject Julian's offer, even if Julian had betrayed Eric. So the safest way was staying with Eric.
He had no interest to betray Corwin either. Of course he could betray him out of revenge, but he was not this type of man. He wanted to have a good position. Corwin was strong at that time. The only person stronger than him was Brand, but allying with Brand would not be a good idea, because Brand wanted to rule on his own so it wouldn't have been beneficial for Julian.
"Damn you, Luke. You always make the stupidest things sound sort of attractive."
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 Post subject: Re: Prince Julian - what do you think of him
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 10:01 pm 
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Dis- I made a post but apparently ezboard deleted it.

In essence, I agree with you in your analysis of Eric's "Julian I spit upon" comment. I also noted that Eric was, as I understand it, at least somewhat pressured (manipulated?) by Caine and Julian to assume the throne.

Undoubtedly, Julian is intent upon staying on the side of who looks to be the future winner, much like Flora.

Still, I am impressed by his loyalty to Amber. "If we lived in a State where virtue was profitable, common sense would make us good, and greed would make us saintly. And we'd live like animals or angels in the happy land that needs no heroes. But since in fact we see that avarice, anger, envy, pride, sloth, lust, and stupidity commonly profit far beyond humility, chastity, fortitude, justice and thought, and have to choose, to be human at all...why then perhaps we must stand fast a little - even at the risk of being heroes." - Sir Thomas More, "A Man For All Seasons," by Robert Bolt<i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: Prince Julian - what do you think of him
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 9:48 pm 
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Well, one more person disliking Julian. We have equal distribution of votes "Damn you, Luke. You always make the stupidest things sound sort of attractive."
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