Ahira's Hangar

Not sure whether to post this here or in Current Affairs, but here goes...



So some Christian missionaries came back to an Arab American festival for a second year in an attempt to evangelize Muslims. They had gone last year and gotten into trouble with security then; this year they were arrrested and jailed for disturbing the peace.

Obviously there is freedom of religion and freedom of speech here in America.

But where does the limit fall for freedom from a religion?

When people deliberately attend a ginormous festival designed for others who observe a different religion from themselves and try to make converts, is that line crossed? How far do they go at that festival to cross a line, if you see a line at all?

How would these evangelists react if someone from another religion came to a Christian festival and tried to convert them to another religion?

To add to this :

the evangelicals freely admit they walked around openly filming and recording everything they did and said at the festival. Is this a breach of other people's privacy? Could this be the disturbance as much as the preaching? Or maybe a combination of both?

Are these people sincerely trying to help others or are they obnoxious attention seekers? Or both?

Not trying to single out Christians and Muslims here - feel free to substitute any other religious groups. Perhaps Hindus trying for converts at a large Jewish-American festival? Looking for thoughts on limits of freedom of religious expression and speech vs. disruption of public events.

Personally I wish I could sign a register to keep religious people seeking converts away from my house. Hate, hate, hate the door to door religion sales people (and door to door sales people period). If I can register my phone so as to not be bothered by sales people, why not my freaking HOME?

Not sure about public events - I guess it would depend too much on the specific circumstances...

Dunno...morally, I think there are limits. I don't walk into churches and start telling people there's no god.

Legally, I'm not sure...maybe you could get around by having "right of admission reserved" or something.

--A

In this case, it seems to me that these particular evangelists were expecting trouble, hence the cameras and tape recorders. I think there is a pretty good chance they went in to cause trouble, and claiming some sort of martyr status afterward.

Sounds much like the tactics of the Westboro Baptist Church, who hope to entice counter-demonstrations against them and then sue those they demonstrated against with their hate-filled rhetoric for freedom of speech or other "civil right" violations.

I gather that the event was open to the public, which means anybody can walk in and pretty much say anything they want.

In terms of the video footage, I dunno for sure, but I think that if you're in a public place, it's not a violation of your right to privacy for someone to take your picture. (And if it is, I've got a whole lot of 'splainin' to do over my vacation photos. )

That said, yeah, the activists definitely went in there to cause trouble. And I think it's in very poor taste to crash a Muslim party, as it were, and preach the gospel. But I don't anybody's Constitutional rights were violated. And it sounds like the cops were restrained when they escorted them out.

Duchess, a few years ago, I answered a knock on my door to find a little kid with an adult, handing out literature about an upcoming tent revival or something and inviting me to come. I took the literature and told the adult, "I'm Pagan so I don't think I'll be coming, but thanks," closed the door on them, and deposited the handout in the trash. I bet they're still praying for me.

Religion in your country is a serious business.

--A

One of my friends and her family were being positively hounded in their home by the local Jehovah's Witnesses. One day she had enough and told them that she and her family were Satan worshipers (they were actually moderate Catholics). Evangelists literally fled from her property and never came back.

Yeah, the evangelists in Dearborn were practicing their Constitutionally protected free speech rights, no matter how obnoxiously. That said, I do not grieve that they were arrested for disrupting the peace.

The Jehovah's Witnesses are the worst, with their apocalyptic worldview and their persistence. The nice Mormon boys on their bicycles will go away and not come back, but the Jehovah's Witnesses won't take no for an answer.

Two points from my reading of previous messages. Did these folks going to the festival know their activity would be provocative and elicit a reaction...yeah? However, I think comparisons to Phellps Westoboro group are unfair, inaccurate. This activity regardless how disruptive hardly rises to Westboro's level of venality.

Realize to US Constitution guarantees freedom of worship, freedom of religion has limits; examples, SCOTUS cases regarding Native American Church (group that uses peyote (illegal hallucinogen) cactus as part of their rituals), SCOTUS cases regarding santeria groups and their ritualistic uses of animal scarfice. Going back to WWII, jailing of certain religious pacificists for failure to register for Selective Service, leading to the current situation and governmental recognition of select religious groups as pacificists for purposes of religious

Consider other countries, Mexico, and maybe France, too, limits religious ministers from exercising their franchise. Mexico precludes the immigration of foreigners for purposes of missionary work; yes I know literally hundreds of US folks do such work in Mexico, it's because the particular Mexican law has more loopholes, exceptions and work arounds than almost any other law known. For your information, Israel has some similar laws regarding missionaries.

Two points from my reading of previous messages. Did these folks going to the festival know their activity would be provocative and elicit a reaction...yeah? However, I think comparisons to Phellps Westoboro group are unfair, inaccurate. This activity regardless how disruptive hardly rises to Westboro's level of venality.

Realize to US Constitution guarantees freedom of worship, freedom of religion has limits; examples, SCOTUS cases regarding Native American Church (group that uses peyote (illegal hallucinogen) cactus as part of their rituals), SCOTUS cases regarding santeria groups and their ritualistic uses of animal scarfice. Going back to WWII, jailing of certain religious pacificists for failure to register for Selective Service, leading to the current situation and governmental recognition of select religious groups as pacificists for purposes of religious

Consider other countries, Mexico, and maybe France, too, limits religious ministers from exercising their franchise. Mexico precludes the immigration of foreigners for purposes of missionary work; yes I know literally hundreds of US folks do such work in Mexico, it's because the particular Mexican law has more loopholes, exceptions and work arounds than almost any other law known. For your information, Israel has some similar laws regarding missionaries.

Ban the evangelists.

--A

I watched "Religulous" on DVD last night: Bill Maher skewering all the major religions, pretty much equally. It was pretty entertaining.