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David Zindell's Neverness, A Requiem for Homo Sapiens and all things Science Fiction and Fantasy
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 Post subject: Ahimsa
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2002 12:00 am 
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Pg 203, The Broken God: ***While admitting he had adopted one of the Fravashi's crucial beliefs, he said that ahimsa was no mere doctrine, but rather a perception of the universe that had been interpreted and stated AS a belief. "This perception is what matters," Danlo said. "The interconnectedness of all things. Ahimsa is SEEING this connection. But sometimes...one forgets to see."***
Unlike the real Danlo I am sometimes prone 2 eat meat, but I totally dislike war, hunting, violence and mean people. As a former, politically active environmentalist and fundraiser I try 2 truck out 3 times what I bring in2 the mountians and recycle. Lately I've been 4getting 2 recycle, alot. This must change! Another thing I wish 2 c in my lifetime is the end of prejudice--we all breathe the same air we all bleed the same blood so what is the difference? Nothing sets us above each other or any living thing. If I fight against anything it's fear and ignornance but we must clean our own house first. I believe that spirituality is a very personal thing that should never be imposed on another, for me it's a daily personal battle 2 stay honest and true 2 myself. I work not 2 judge but it can b xtremely difficult-it requires daily TOTAL awareness, humility, faith and gratitude. Fortunately I have recently learned 2 4give myself and others. Nobody's perfect (if we were it would b 2 boring) but I honestly try 2 practice ahimsa on a regular basis: "Never harming or killing another living thing, even in one's thoughts"
Fall Far and Well Pilots!<i>Edited by: danlo60 at: 4/8/02 3:47:02 pm
</i>


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 Post subject: Re: Ahimsa
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2002 12:31 am 
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An admirable goal (not killing any living thing). I agree with your views except where they conclift with Christianity, and I don't know that they do.
Racism is a very sad state. Most of it comes from pure ignorance and by being trained to hate. No one is born hating; it comes from learned experiences.
I have nothing against eating meat. I couldn't kill the animal myself, but I do eat meat.
I pray for myself and others daily.
You sound like a really good guy, Danlo! Arise now, Riders of Théoden!Let horse be bridled, horn be sounded!Forth Eorlingas!<i></i>


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 Post subject: Can o'worms!
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2002 2:56 pm 
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--Jesus, King! You had to mention the X word--didn't you! You just opened a big ol' can o'worms. But I guess I set us all up for that by creating this particular forum. I can see this forum flying around from topic to topic, from ahimsa to religion, Moska to philosophy with all of us chasing each other around with our heads cut off. Sounds like great fun!! I'm serious...I will try to make an attempt to keep these discussions in the category they belong, but I can already see it won't work.
--I am going to move the discussion of Xtianity to a religion topic mainly because if we look at the character Danlo,the focus of A Requiem for Homo Sapiens (the 3 books that follow Neverness), we see that ahimsa, in and of itself, is the core of what makes Danlo such a unique literary persona. ---All four books subject the reader to a massive onslaught of mathematics, genetics, philosophies, religions, concepts, beliefs and worldviews. Indeed, they are almost like a series of seminars in Quantum Mechcanics where Physics meets God, or Gods. The books propose how we can evolve the human 'potential' and take it to the next level and beyond. Some have classified this exercise as "Transhumanism". But it's just a way of looking at the universe and our existence, it is not any proposed religion, dogma or cultism--it is merely a way of being exposed to and processing a multitude of differing philosophies.
--Danlo is subjected to everything and anything imaginable, and even tho many of us, if we were in his shoes in these circumstances, would be very, very, tempted to break our vows and lash out or kill in the name precieved justice, his deep belief in the principle of ahimsa prevents him from doing so-- yet he STILL discovers ways to resolve these situations. to me this is absolutely AMAZING! Like Thomas Covenant he is almost a totally helpless character--yet he perserveers!!
--Ahimsa is NOT all Danlo is about--I hate to sound condesending but the issues are SO hideously complex that you really need to read the books, if you haven't done so already, to even have an inkling of what I'm talking about--new religions we've never dreamed of are created in Neverness: men attempt to become computers, computers attempt to become Gods. Danlo is exposed to an almost "Native American" way of seeing things not to mention Moska, Shih and other alien disciplines. Jeez--Pilots in general must master the arts of zazen, fugue and hallning just to even think about opening a window in the Manifold!
--No I don't think that ahimsa contradicts Xtianity at all in fact it may help us see a little more clearly what Jesus was really all about! But, yes, that is another awfully big can o' worms and you'll have to follow me the Religion topic if ya wanna go fishing! Fall Far and Well Pilots!<i>Edited by: danlo60 at: 8/17/06 11:32 pm
</i>


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 Post subject: Re: Can o'worms!
PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2002 5:23 pm 
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One of the most interesting things, for me, about "The Broken God" was that (even tho there was a big ol' lightship on the cover of the paperback edition I found at the library...) there wasn't much in the way of the spaceships-and-rayguns stuff that a lot of sci-fi tends to concentrate on. There was a whole lot more in there about philosophy than I would have expected, going in.

I had some fun noticing which religious traditions from our time Zindell thought might survive. Most of the stuff he kept seems to come from Eastern philosophy, albeit morphed into stuff we may not recognize: yoga, zen Buddhism, etc. I was a little amused that the "Kristians" couldn't make a go of it on Neverness, and had to sell their cathedral and move out. And I think Zindell had it just right when he talked about how religion has nothing to do with spirituality. As he talked about how Ringism was beginning to change from a spiritual path (with the switch from kalla to seawater) to a religion -- from a method by which people could participate directly in their spiritual search into a religion where followers would have to take everything on faith -- I could see the parallels with our religions today, particularly "Kristianity". The whole thing about "Mallory Ringess has become a god and will come again" -- well, substitute "Jesus Christ" for "Mallory Ringess" and that's the creed of the Christian church in a nutshell, isn't it? <i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: Can o'worms!
PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2002 10:00 pm 
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The books that REALLY have the lightships going wild in them r Neverness and the War in Heaven--rayguns, any guns, r outlawed in the entire series-Lightships do have the capacity 2 b destructive--but mathematical destruction, and it's aspects r the amazing things!--U really need 2 read the first book 2 REALLY understand Mallory and Ringism! p.s.: I HATE that cover: ski boots and ski poles have absolutely nothing 2 do with Neverness--Danlo never had short hair in his life and a Lightship looks nothing like that "thing" @ all--however good renderings of Akatel and Urkel (Mts) and a cool iceboat. Fall Far and Well Pilots!<i>Edited by: danlo60 at: 4/29/02 8:22:19 am
</i>


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 Post subject: Back to ahimsa...
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2002 9:41 pm 
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I've been reading "Yoga Journal" and in the most recent issue (the article is called, "The Path of the Peaceful Warrior"), they talk about ahimsa (nonviolence) being a Buddhist principle. Don't remember whether the Fravashi mention the ancient Buddhist connection; probably not. But I found it interesting. <i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: Back to ahimsa...
PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2002 7:50 pm 
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Two beautiful books that relate to the concept of Ahimsa are: The Way of the Peaceful Warrior and it's sequel The Sacred Journey of the Peaceful Warrior by Dan Millman--I highly recommend these--they have helped change my life as much as the Neverness books and rereading The Chrons of Thomas Covenant in a healthy state of mind has. How far do you fall Pilot?<i>Edited by: danlo60 at: 8/17/06 11:38 pm
</i>


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 Post subject: Re: Back to ahimsa...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2002 5:30 am 
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The power of ahimsa is not just the readiness to die. It is the willingness to live. To live utterly without fear - this is a fearsome thing.--David Zindell
How far do you fall Pilot?<i></i>


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 Post subject: Thoughs about ahisma and Danlo
PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2004 7:33 pm 
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Spoliers abound!
After finishing the last book in A Requiem for Homo Sapiens I am wondering about the ending. Does Danlo abandon ahisma, or is it just a slip? What I am trying to say is that in many trials in the past he held on to his belief solidly even in the face of grave danger, and in the end first he goes on a hunting expedition, and finally he kills Hanuman with his bare hands. I have a feeling that this was not a momentary slip, something in the process that Danlo went through weakened/cracked the totality of his belief in ahisma.
-pitch

BTW, Timekeeper, ever since your recommendation on Zindel I take your recommendations very seriously, I have put "Way of the Peaceful Warrior" on my "to read" list. <i>Edited by: pitchwife at: 4/18/04 12:37 pm
</i>


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 Post subject: Re: Thoughs about ahisma and Danlo
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 2:02 am 
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Quote:BTW, Timekeeper, ever since your recommendation on Zindel I take your recommendations very seriously, I have put "Way of the Peaceful Warrior" on my "to read" list.Yeah, danlo's not entirely dim, eh?

As for ahimsa, it seems to me that Danlo (not danlo, Danlo) came to the realization that ahimsa was not the natural way of things. Regarding the eating of meat, my view is that it is not wrong for a species that can digest meat to eat it. Are there animals that would die of malnutrition if they only ate meat? Or some that would not eat it no matter how hungry they were? But Danlo could eat meat and thrive, and that says the natural way is for him to eat it.

As for the hunting and killing of the prey, maybe Danlo views it the way Maeniel, one of Alice Borchardt's werewolves, does:Quote:Maeniel's flying momentum carried him past the other cowering wolves and took him right into the bull's horns. From the corner of his eye, Maeniel saw the horn hook, the blunt tip moving like lightning to impale him. But, at the last moment, he flattened his body. He felt the horn cross his back, pushing his belly into the snow. Then, his back legs were under him and he was up, leaping with all the force of his powerful hindquarters for the bull's throat.

A last bellow deafened him to everything else...ending in a wheeze as his jaws crushed the bull's windpipe. He clung. Up as the old bull in his death throes reared almost like a horse. Then, down, down, smashing into the snow that rose in clouds around the thrashing bodies of the killer and his prey. The breath in his body wooshed out between his grimly locked fangs. His ears caught the sickening snap of a breaking bone. His or the bull's, he didn't know. A sense of utter rightness filled the wolf. Incomprehensible in human terms. Only as this is why we live and the way we are supposed to die.


Killing Hanuman is another matter. I'm opposed to capital punishment. Putting someone in jail for life will prevent the repetition of the crime, and that should be our goal. We should strive to think that revenge is beneath us. But Danlo knew that no prison would hold Hanuman. He would get out somehow, and begin his madness again. Revenge played no part in Danlo's actions. It was a tragic necessity. ____________
Highdrake's mastery of spells and sorcery was not much greater than his pupil's, but he had clear in his mind the idea of something very much greater, the wholeness of knowledge. And that made him a mage.<i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: Thoughs about ahisma and Danlo
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 3:40 am 
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ah Highdrake gets it! *****
Before, you are wise; after, you are wise. In between you are otherwise.
Fravashi saying (from the formularies of Osho the Fool) <i></i>


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 Post subject: Ahimsa
PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 4:30 am 
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Did you bump this for me danlo?

I have to agree with Highdrake that Ahimsa, while a noble principle, is not the way of the world. Nature, all of it, kills or destroys in one sense or another.

Not having read the last 2 books of Requiem, I didn't read his post in detail though.

However, much as Ahimsa is not "natural" they difference lies in the intent I think. Although it does happen on occaision, nature in general doesn't destroy needlessly, although it may do so thoughtlessly.

As an aside, I'm reminded of a question I once asked in the Zindell thread at the Watch about the nature of Ahimsa. In Broken God, Danlo is distraught at killing that snow-worm in the restuarant. Couldn't a mercy killing be an act of Ahimsa? Is it worse to stand and do nothing when something is dying in agony? Or to end it's suffering? I know which I think is the more righteous deed.

(Edit: Oh wait, it wasn't bumped at all it looks like. Odd. (Not used to this board yet obviously. Anyway, good topic. )

--A ____________________________________

"We have become a society in which the Artist is regarded as
A self-indulgent superfluity, and the person who juggles stocks and shares
Is an essential part of the economy. Something is Wrong" -Pam Brown.
<i>Edited by: Avatar  at: 8/3/06 9:32 pm
</i>


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 Post subject: Re: Ahimsa
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 6:20 am 
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Haha! Mercy killing in my version of Ahimsa is required. *****
Before, you are wise; after, you are wise. In between you are otherwise.
Fravashi saying (from the formularies of Osho the Fool) <i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: Ahimsa
PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:31 am 
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Makes sense to me anyway. Allowing something to suffer when you could end it's misery is the same as wanton cruelty as far as I'm concerned.

--A ____________________________________

A sense of the sardonic preserves a man from believing in his own pretensions. -The Sayings Of Maud'Dib<i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: Ahimsa
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 10:19 pm 
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Fist (Highdrake) I don't know if you ever got back to me on the Millman books--maybe they're discussed somewhere else here-I'll try to look for them.

If you do (still) take my recommendations seriously I urge you, and everyone else who happens by here to pick up a very charming and enlightening book called The Four Agreements: A Toltec Book of Wisdom by don Miguel Ruiz. No one can explain the sudden ancient desertion of Teotihuacan, the mysterious, extremely precise pyramid city on the flats outside Mexico City. And no one can really explain where the Toltecs have gone. I've always believed they never left it's just that we don't have the capacity to see them.

If the "don" in the author's name seems to ring a Castenada-ish bell it should-Ruiz was raised by his mother, who was a curandera (healer), and his grandfather, a naqual (shaman). Combining a way of reprogramming mindsets to set the seeker free this "way" the book is like a combination of ahimsa and the "Psyhics of Love" (that the last two books of the Hyperion Cantos talk about). A small and very engaging book that focuses in on tapping personal power in order to learn restriant and the discipline necessary to conquer fear and emotional scarring embedded in one's deep programs.

I'll have more to say in a tomorrow after a little bit of this and a little bit of this

(or if Avatar want's to chat right now...) *****
Before, you are wise; after, you are wise. In between you are otherwise.
Fravashi saying (from the formularies of Osho the Fool) <i>Edited by: danlo60 at: 10/16/06 9:38 pm
</i>


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