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 Post subject: Re: Pro-American
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2002 4:24 am 
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Actually there is no evidence to suggest Bin Laden is in Iraq .. and if indeed you think Al quaida members have fled to Iraq what makes you think that?

This is merely speculation .. and there has been speculations uttered as to whereabouts of OBL since his exodus from Afghanistan .. and it has been variously proffered that he is in any number of different locations all over the world .. Pakistan being one of them.

But maybe he is in Iraq .. though the US have not cited this as their reason for attacking Iraq because they dont know that he is there for sure .. But ok maybe Hussein is harbouring OBL .. maybe he is not .. I guess that remains to be seen.

As for Iraq or Hussein praising the terrorist attacks of 9/11 .. well he has every right to express his own opinion doesnt he?.. To an Iraqi it may have been seen as 'justifiable' retaliation against US imperial brutality.

The US have a messy history in the middle east .. which is a sad indictment for US foreign policy.

Dont we have to be able to be tolerant of other view points .. .. Isnt freedom of speech constitutionally protected in the US? .. Dont the US have to be tolerant also? Or is there a double standard where the US are concerned .. is it now .. 'others have the right to say what they think so long as it is agreement with us [the US]'.

As for Iraq .. there is also no evidence to suggest that Hussein had anything whatsoever to do with 9/11 .. just because Iraq utters anti-US sentiments does not impy that OBL and Hussein are colaborators.

.. in fact there is considerable evidence to suggest they are rivals not colaborators in their quest for pre-eminence .. both vying to be the one to lead the way for the east .. their agendas differing markedly.

In the past Hussein has vehemently opposed Bin Laden .. not for the reasons we do .. but for his own .. in his quest to be the top dog!

The question then remains .. what has Suddam actually done in connnection with 9/11 .. the current evidence available would suggest nothing at all. The intended attack on Iraq supposedly has no direct relationship with anything Hussein <b> has done</b> but the reasons given by the US for aggressions against Iraq .. is more about what he <b> might</b> do.

In a world of nuclear weapons and weapons of mass destruction .. biological and chemical weapons .. particularly after 9/11 .. the US understandably feels terribly vulnerable to nations who harbour anti-US sentiments and who have weapons programmes on a scale such that can pose a real threat to the US .. so to neutralise the threat that these anti-US nations might foreseeably pose .. the US want to invade Iraq and depose Hussein.

.. to the US .. Hussein is a ticking bomb .. a loose cannon .. they cannot play the waiting game where he is concerned. I agree .. they cannot .. If Iraq is on the cusp of nuclear capability .. they will pose a significant threat to the west. I see Iraq's turn around in allowing unconditional inspections to be a positive step .. in the right direction.

And as far as the UN is concerned .. lets not confuse the issue here .. They may have been no UN without the US but that does not infer that the US is the UN ..The US is only one member .. the US is not representative of this international body and does not represent world opinion.

There is a problem with the UN .. being that it is a political organisation .. they only act when it is politically expedient to do so .. so quite often they are not as expeditous as we feel they should be and in reality they could be.

I agree with you if individual countries dont stand up to bullies who will .. if that wasnt true .. then we all might be speaking the tongue of the fatherland today. That is the very reason the Brits and their allied forces intervened in German aggressions against their european neighbours .. and then it was the US who refused to get involved .. thank the Gods that following Pearl Harbour their hand was forced.

The US wants universal approval for the actions it hopes to take .. no nation wants to act uni-laterally and in turn be seen as the big bully on the block. The US dont need the UK muscle to support a military campaign against Iraq .. nor probably any other nation .. but if they want to maintain the high moral ground they have to take stock of what they do .. they have to be accountable .. To maintain the high moral ground and thus universal approval and support they have to show their actions are justified.

If it looks like a witch hunt .. or the US take upon themselves the role of 'freedom fighters' .. liberating the globe from rogue regimes and 'tyranny' .. Who decides what qualifies as tyrannical in those nations that it is not so clear as in Iraq? The US is allied with the Saudi's .. would you say they are a tyrannical regime? But they are US allies arent they? There is a very fine line between .. 'freedom fighting' .. and 'terrorism' as I said earlier.


.





health and healing<i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: Pro-American
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2002 7:40 pm 
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Wow! You have given me much to think about and a resultingly long post.
The US doesnt represent world opinion. Correct. However, our opinion drives us to do what WE think is right. Im not saying what the US says is always the right thing. Weve made our share of mistakes....Vietnam, Korea, and Im not entirely sure if the atomic bombing of Hiroshima nd Kawasaki was necessary....
To the UN, they do have their own problems...I believe what makes them ineffective are some of their member countires. France for example... Russia, but theyre waging a war of their own... I believe it is impossible for so many diverse nations such as those under the UN to be united and stay united for that matter, effectively. The UN was a great idea...I think it SHOULD stay together...but its got some serious flaws that cannot be corrected. Flaws that have been created generation ago....
Hussein is a ticking time bomb. More the reason to take him out. You mentioned the difference between what he HAS done and what he WILL do. What he has done are not worth mentioning, and what he will do remains to be seen. Will he attack Israel? Will he stage another attempt to take over the Middle-eastern oil market? Will he develop a nuke, and use against a bordering or nearby nation. There are infinite possibilities. All of them are bad news. A nuke would not only seriously threat to the West, but to more importantly and immenitley Israel. Israel has to be protected. Israels destruction would cause utter chaos in the world. However, all of these
things would be idiotic for Hussein to do. We have to think of his priorities. I think most people already know what they are. To stay in power. That too, is a bad thing. In my mind, it doesnt matter whether he does something, or nothing at all, Husseins got to go!
I did not say OBL was in Iraq. I said members of Al Qaida were in Iraq, possibly. Plus wwe do know that the director of Iraqi Intel. met with an important Al Qaida group in Europe. Saddam has the freedom of speech. He can damn well say whatever he wants. Its just what he says. Are you saying its a good thing to welcome the killing of thousands of innocent civilians??!
I hope I have given you many things to think about, for Sky has risen some interesting questions... Your affectionate uncle, Screwtape<i>Edited by: mhoram6910 at: 9/20/02 2:02:45 pm
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 Post subject: Re: Pro-American
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2002 12:22 am 
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I never said that Pakistan and India were a threat 2 the US, but they both have the bomb and r threats 2 each other--heck the fallout could endanger lives in other countries if they bombed each other. I, personally, dont really believe Pakistan is our ally--if they harbor Bin Laden and allow Daniel Perlman 2 b beheaded. They kno whats going on...they're like the Saudis--US allies on one hand--terrorist supporters on the other. And what about HAAMAS--y doesn't any1 go after them??? The true human being is the meaning of the universe. He is a dancing star. He is the exploding singularity with infinite possibilities. <i>Edited by: danlo60 at: 9/20/02 10:42:29 pm
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 Post subject: Re: Pro-American
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2002 12:48 am 
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Pakistan isnt harboring Bin Laden. Even I know that. All it takes is one bribe to a Pakistani guard, and boom! hes over the border. The Pearl incident was a complete fiasco. That wasnt Pakistans fault.
Hamas, isnt the US's problem....not yet. Theyre based soley in Israel, and we have to go after Al Qaida and Huseein first. Speaking of ant-Hussein sentiments... Happy Birthday Don Rumsefeld! The big 70! I think it was the other day...but what the hell? Your affectionate uncle, Screwtape<i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: Pro-American
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2002 5:50 am 
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I'm sorry I used the word harboring--but of course they r aware he is there when he is there--and 1/2 of Pakistani school kids, when interviewed by the US media, said they worship Bin Laden. A good number of the leaders of HAMAS were trained by Bin Laden in Lebanon--the CIA was well aware of that and chose not 2 act. HAMAS's reach goes well beyond Isreal. Paskistan could have stopped the beheading if they really wanted 2... The true human being is the meaning of the universe. He is a dancing star. He is the exploding singularity with infinite possibilities. <i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: Iraq Round 2
PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2003 1:01 am 
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Well, looks like war is pretty imminent (sp???). Further up, and further in!<i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: Iraq Round 2
PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2003 5:37 am 
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not if the majority of citizens who really oppose war stand up--I'm privy 2 a Rolling Stone article that makes a real case that Bush's actions r ridiculous...I'll b back w/it very soon! (if I can't find it on the web--I'll copy it, 4 god's sake!!!) And now Danlo looked in that direction, too. He remembered that snowy owls mate in the darkest part of deep winter, and so along with this beautiful white bird perched in a tree a hundred feet away, he turned to face the sea as he watched and waited.

Ahira, Ahira, he called out silently to the sky. Ahira, Ahira<i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: Iraq Round 2
PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2003 12:50 am 
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I'm one of those Americans who is going to reluctatnly accept a war w/Iraq. Further up, and further in!<i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: Iraq Round 2
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2003 4:36 am 
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War is never something to look forward to, but there are far worse things. Hussein is a cancer, and the sooner he is removed, the better. The Iraqi people have suffered under him long enough. Please don't tell me that the U.S. has no right to liberate the Iraqis, because if we don't, who will? The Iraqi citizens certainly are not able to remove him.

This war is not about oil; the U.S. could simply cut a deal with Hussein for cheap oil in return for lifting sanctions. This war is about liberating Iraq. While it would be good to have world opinion on our side, the world does not have the right to tell the Iraqis that they must remain oppressed by a brutal dictator and his generals.

I don't know what the Iraqis will do with their new freedom after the war. Perhaps they will waste the opportunity, but I believe that they at least deserve a chance. I remember thinking the same thing a few years ago when U.S. support for the Nicaraguan resistance fighters forced the Sandinistas to hold free elections, and the Nicaraguan people promptly kicked the Sandinista thugs out of power. If the U.S. had listened to the rest of the world's criticism of their support for the resistance, then the Nicaraguans would never have had the chance, and would still be living under a Marxist dictatorship. One of the proudest days of my life was watching the celebrations in Managua after the 1990 elections and knowing that I had been part of a people becoming free. I hope the Iraqis are able to celebrate the fall of Hussein and their new freedom. <i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: Iraq Round 2
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2003 9:20 pm 
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Well said! Further up, and further in!<i></i>


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 Post subject: ...
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2003 4:13 pm 
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and I hope that enough Iraqi citizens survive to appreciate their new found freedom ..

this war is not about liberating the poor suffering Iraqi's actually .. it is about removing a perceived global threat. It is supposed to be about the War on Terrorism ..

The Iraqis have lived under Hussein's oppressive rogue regime for generations and no one has taken a stand to liberate them from their suffering .. and if Hussein wasnt an unpredictable factor .. an unstable element in the global equasion .. an aggression against Iraq would not be likely to occur.




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 Post subject: Re: ...
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2003 8:25 pm 
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Quote:It is supposed to be about the War on Terrorism Some would argue that that is not the case, I am not one of them. Further up, and further in!<i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: Iraq Round 2
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm 
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U're right it's not totally about Oil: Quote:Published September 12 - 19, 2002
An Anti-War Movement of One
A conservative breaks ranks with both the right and left to oppose an Iraq attack.
BY PHILIP GOLD

"Our national myth showed us that we were good, our technology made us strong, and our bureaucracy gave us standard operating procedures. It was not a winning combination."

So judged a wise historian, Loren Baritz, about how we wandered, open-eyed and fuzzy-minded, into Vietnam. Twenty years ago, when I first read his still-undiscovered masterpiece, Backfire, I cringed. So this is how we do things. This is us. It's going to happen again.

It's happening again. And of late, I've taken to constituting myself as an anti-war movement of one--a man of impeccable conservative credentials and long experience in the national-security field, a grumpy old Marine, who has grown infuriated with and appalled by both the conservative embrace of disaster and the enormity of the smallness of what passes for the anti-war movement today.

Yes, technology makes us strong, possessed of a military such as the world has never seen. But the myths now come to us less out of our own wishes and experiences than courtesy of an ugly cabal, half-Pentagon, half-media.

The Pentagon half: It's not so much el jefe, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld (a good man and an excellent "SECDEF" , as some of the little jefitos running around. You want names? Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz and the denizens of the Defense Policy Board, an unpaid in-house think tank headed by Reaganite retread Richard Perle, a.k.a. "The Prince of Darkness," a moniker he earned in the 1980s for his love of confrontation for the sake of confrontation and of all things nuclear.

The media half? Again, not just the Big Guys, the Foxes (I like O'Reilly) and the MSNBCs (Nachman's cool). It's also a couple slick policy rags more notable for their influence than their circulation. The Weekly Standard and its allied P.R. machine, the Project for the New American Century, come to mind--the Bill Kristols, et al.

WHO ARE THESE people? Generically, they've been called "American Gaullists," after France's 20th-century all-purpose savior, Charles "France Without Greatness Isn't France" de Gaulle. But greatness without grace isn't greatness. The current D.C. version: America Without Greatness Isn't America. Let's go thump somebody. It'll be quick and easy and cheap and great, great fun and anyway, as a recent New American Century fax addressed to "opinion leaders" assures us, Baghdad won't be like Mogadishu because this time we have "the will to win."

Le Grand Charles, who knew from wars both world and colonial, would have scorned anything so stupid and so glib. These men aren't Gaullists. They're Prussians, a new aristocracy of aggression that combines 19th-century Prussian pigheadedness with a most un-Prussian inability to read a map or a ledger book, and a near total lack of military--let alone combat--experience. Ask these people to show you their wounds, and they'll probably wave a Washington Post editorial at you.

As for procedures--the procedures pertaining to going to war--the administration's strategy (or lack thereof) can only be described as bizarre. OK, so maybe they're practicing psychological warfare, or even their own brand of taqiya, an Arabic word connoting the right and duty of believers to lie to infidels. (Why not? The Islamic world seems to have adopted a Jewish communications strategy known as kvetching.) But when a president of the United States tells us that--not to worry--if he decides to go to war, he'll definitely ask the Congress for "support," and--again, not to worry--he'll "explain it" to the American people and we'll "understand," it's enough to make you join the anti-war movement.

What anti-war movement? When you look at what passes for "resistance" nowadays, you cringe in embarrassment that this is what's left of the left. Pompous. Arrogant. Self-righteous. Self-referent. Impotence chic at its finest. Punch up www.notinourname. net and read their "pledge of resistance." Or imagine my feelings--I almost said, "Feel my pain"--when I did a local church panel recently. A man in the audience asked if America would die like Rome, Nazi Germany, and the British Empire. One panelist agreed that, yes, America will die. The audience applauded.

And that's why I've come to be an anti-war movement of one, talking to anyone who will listen, not about how evil or how good we are, but about the world as it is and the vortex we're approaching.

On Sept. 10, 2001, the Beltway couldn't decide whether the defense budget should be $310 billion or $312 billion. The Weekly Standard crowd was demanding Rumsfeld's resignation for refusal to spend more money faster. Today, annual defense and homeland-security expenditures have swooshed past $400 billion. At this rate, we will spend more on defense in this decade than we did directly on all of World War II. So where's the world war?

All around us. Today, depending on how you count, there are between 60 and 100 international, transnational, civil, and regional armed conflicts under way. The world is at war. And we're getting ready for combat around the world. Since Sept. 11, we've been building foreign bases in central Asia, the Persian Gulf, and down the east coast of Africa. The Pentagon speaks of being there for "the long haul." We're concluding training and other agreements with dozens of countries and groups (note well: groups), and generally mucking about with a fervor not seen since the 1950s era of "Pactomania."

Alas, then as now and try as we might, we have few reliable or democratic allies. We have maybe half a dozen friends: Britain, Canada, Australia, Israel (sometimes), Turkey (a better friend to us than we've been to them), and, soon enough, Russia. Beyond that, we have relationships and hookups in ever-proliferating quantity and ever more complex and questionable quality.

SO WHAT'S THIS new struggle, these hundred conflicts already melding into yet another world war, about? Put simply: Maybe half the countries on this planet--and many of the poorest and most volatile--have borders that don't make sense politically, militarily, ethnically, culturally, economically, or ecologically. Before the Soviet collapse, borders were considered sacrosanct, virtually immutable, the sine qua non of national sovereignty. Now sovereignty is breaking down and busting up all over, and borders grow ever more unavailing and unreal. No amount of Western-style "nation building" can hold together nations that never should have been nations in the first place and shouldn't be now. And no amount of American muscle can police a world destined for a century of conflict over resources, religions, identities, and whatever else people care to massacre each other about.

Throughout the Cold War, we failed at Third World nation building, failures we could elide courtesy of local thugs and kleptocrats. During a decade that historians may someday call "The Wasted '90s," we blew it in Haiti, Somalia, and, to some extent, in the Balkans.

We're getting our first hard lesson in Afghanistan, whose continued existence as a collection of feuding tribes and warlords isn't worth the bones of an Arkansas grenadier. If we go into Iraq, if we get our "regime change" and then try to build them a country, the lesson will be harsher still. And as we fail, the chaos--and our involvement and implication in that chaos--will spread. It will spread through the Islamic world. It will spread through Africa. And the consequences and the violence will not be confined to those unhappy lands. Not to mention the fact that, from the jihadist point of view--they who recognize no legitimate borders save those of the Umma, the Islamic world under their brand of Islamic law--destabilization is exactly the opportunity they want.

So what's Iraq about? In the end, it's not about that nasty man or the nasty things he's collecting. It's about what the policy wonks call "destabilization." It's about taking the next step into a regional and a global chaos that could wreck this planet.

So what do we do when the government's careening toward disaster, the anti-war movement's comatose, and the media keep us on perpetual spin? For starters, we dare to risk unilateral rationality. Which tells us that we've yet to begin to develop an effective strategy for coping with terrorism and weapons of mass destruction, let alone the imminent fracturing of dozens of nations.

Iraq?

Not now.

info@seattleweekly.com
More about oil: Bin Laden, if he is still alive is probably in Saudi Arabia, our buddy--which is a major supporter and the gov't that spawned Bin Laden. Of course Pakistan harbored Bin Laden--even Kuwait hates us, despite what we did 4 them, now Germany and France think we'r idiots. The general news media is now totally controlled by the govt. No true info is getting out--I would think a little more about the issue and question where ur information is coming from...I 4 1 oppose this war and c the "Franco" proganista machine rolling and the "brownshirts" just around the corner. Because this time, as opposed 2 Vietnam, when the "comatose" anti-war movement finally wakes ups--no 1 in American will humor them. And that's a very scary prospect indeed. And now Danlo looked in that direction, too. He remembered that snowy owls mate in the darkest part of deep winter, and so along with this beautiful white bird perched in a tree a hundred feet away, he turned to face the sea as he watched and waited.

Ahira, Ahira, he called out silently to the sky. Ahira, Ahira<i>Edited by: danlo60 at: 2/18/03 12:20:47 am
</i>


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 Post subject: Re: Iraq Round 2
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2003 2:47 am 
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Quote:Its upposed to be about the War on Terrorism-Sky

Quote:Some would argue that that is not the case, I am not one of them-Mhoram

If the US came out and linked an invasion of Iraq with the Terrorist agenda .. they would have my complete support! But the US has failed to make this connection .. sufficient to justify their intended invasion.

If the US could come out and make a case for any war against Iraq I would reconsider my current stance. But from where I stand and a whole lot of others the US has not given sufficient grounds for aggression against Iraq .. and most definitely not for an imminent [within the month] invasion the US are proposing.

The US if they want to minimise casualties to themselves particularly and maximise their offensive opportunity need to strike before the climate changes and disadvantages an attacking force. This is the drive for haste and unwillingness to sit out the UN inspectors rightful completion and conclusion of their mandated task.

Links to terrorism have not been definitive nor conclusive .. Osama bin Laden has a history of opposition with Hussein .. they are not allies .. never have been .. however it would seem they do have a common enemy .. the US has gone out of its way to ensure that possibility regrettably.

The US administration have announced Hussein had absolutely no involvement in 9/11 ..

The only vague and remote link is what the US believe/suspect/fear .. Hussein .. may/possibly do ..

As I said on the Watch .. a doctrine of pre-emption has never been supportable .. we dont arrest people just incase they commit a crime .. do we?

I dont believe Oil is the major factor in play here .. maybe one of them but not the only or the major ..

But still the US claim their aggression against Iraq is to do with their global war on terrorism.

I really enjoyed reading the article quoted by danlo .. the conservative guy speaking is he 'Phillip Gold' or someone reporting him?

Either way .. his words resonnated with me .. He gives voice to the disillusionment so many feel with the road the US admin have set upon.

Quote:But greatness without grace isn't greatness

I love that quote .. and our graciousness extends to following international rules .. codes .. and pre-emption has never been acceptable and never ever justifiable.

Quote:Throughout the Cold War, we failed at Third World nation building

Exactly!!

You'd think that Korea and Vietnam alone would have taught us something of value!!

We failed miserabley and resoundingly in Vietnam .. I say 'we' cos we were there too .. foolishly but nevertheless there.

Aggression didnt achieve the US agenda of "nation building" nor of "communist containment" .. diplomacy would have been the much preferred alternative .. but there was no time for diplomacy in this time of fear and paranoia ..

We are seeing the mistakes of the past being repeated today .. and it scares and concerns me too!!

Are we about the business making enemies?? How little we think of the consequences of a War against Iraq for the region .. for the future .. let alone the now ..

It will bring immense destabilisation to the region .. the entire middle east .. it will bring resentment more than anticipated liberation .. infrastructures will be destroyed and need to be re-built .. refugees are an inevitable consequence of War .. especially in a nation that has no infrastructure and independable economy .. this will impact on all neighbouring nations and maybe even further afield. Neighboring countries will inevitably suffer some collateral damage ..

Many have raised Afghanistan as an example of "nation liberating" "nation building"

Gold is so right .. it is not worth the bones of US servicemen to be caught in the middle of warring tribal conflict .. this is the situaion now in Afghanistan.

Are the people free?? Free from the Taliban perhaps but not free from the war-lords and infighting of opposing tribes competing to become the next controlling power. Afghanistan has long been plagued with instability .. and warring factions. It is not so easy to apply a western system on top of an antithetical proponents.

Its much more complex .. and involves an extended commitment of generations to see to it successfully complete its transformation/evolution .. into an acceptable to the US 'western' democracy.




'Smoke me a kipper .. I'll be back for breakfast!

'health and healing<i>Edited by: danlo60 at: 2/14/03 7:14:42 am
</i>


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 Post subject: Re: Iraq Round 2
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2003 2:54 am 
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oh and there is still hope danlo .. I am attending a rally/demonstration .. infact 2 on Saturday .. against a US unilateral action against Iraq .. I am taking the whole family and we will add our voices to the many others who wonder about the prudence of waging war at this time.

if you have concerns .. be part of the anti-war movement. What else???

Quote:For starters, [we] dare to risk unilateral rationality. Which tells us that we've yet to begin to develop an effective strategy for coping with terrorism and weapons of mass destruction, let alone the imminent fracturing of dozens of nations.
'Smoke me a kipper .. I'll be back for breakfast!

'health and healing<i></i>


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