Ahira's Hangar

Here in America theres talk about us going to war again against Saddam Hussein. What do you people think? Is a war against Hussein worth it? <i></i>

2 me, @ least, this topic is directly related 2 my 1st post in 'The Environment'. I'm sure G Dub and little Dickie Cheney feel that it's worth it...4 some reason, it just strikes me that if we pursued different avenues of energy and cut at least 1/2 of US/Isreali pursestrings this proposed "action" wouldn't b nessecsary in the 1st place. If we paid attention to our own domestic problems, attempted 2 keep Big Business' "money laundering" schemes in check, created jobs and kept less people out of prison and ceased being the "International Oil Bully" Saddam wouldn't even rate as a problem. Yes, I know, historically--he is a madman: anyone who electrifies 1/2 a battalion of Irani soldiers in a swamp--truly does need 2 be placed in the "rubber room" ad infinitum. In Saddam we have really created our own monster, haven't we? If we took care of our own energy needs, taught of citizens how 2 conserve, acted less spoiled as a country and (2 the extent that we really can) minded our own business in the Middle East. Alot of our "proposed" problems wouldn't have arisen in the 1st place... The true human being is the meaning of the universe. He is a dancing star. He is the exploding singularity with infinite possibilities. <i>Edited by: danlo60 at: 8/30/02 6:08:18 am
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Well, an attack on Iraq is definitely on the way now. President Bush has spoken to the UN Assembly, and has received official support from Tony Blair of the UK... further up and further in<i></i>

Tony Blair! He's Bush's spineless lap dog!!! The true human being is the meaning of the universe. He is a dancing star. He is the exploding singularity with infinite possibilities. <i></i>

Come now! Dont go too far here. Tony Blair is an excellent politician with a mind of his own. Sure, hes pro-American, But isnt that a good thing? further up and further in<i></i>

Just u wait till Sky gets here! Then u'll get an earful!!!! The true human being is the meaning of the universe. He is a dancing star. He is the exploding singularity with infinite possibilities. <i></i>

Forsooth! Ill take you all on! Your affectionate uncle Screwtape<i></i>

I am in 2 minds about all this! I was re: the invasion of Afghanistan .. after an estimated 8,ooo men women and children's deaths I find it difficult to reconcile such an action! I debate this very issue at length with others and yet I still remain undecided at the most judicious action.

I maintained the opinion that OBL would be out of Afghanistan before the US/coalition forces stepped foot in Afghanistan .. and so he was .. or it would seem to be the case. The War on Terrorism is not a War on further innocents imo. And yet although an evil regime was ousted which was a good thing .. it came at a very high cost .. in lives of innocents.

I feel this War needs to be focussed acutely on its enemy .. and that would most certainly seem to be Al Quaida .. With Iraq .. I with many others would rejoice at his being usurped and replaced with a more moderate ruler. Anyone who uses chemical weapons on his own people .. is one evil sicko. but I dont see his being removed as a US responsibility and in that I see great dangers. If such action is to be taken it needs .. no I repeat imo .. it NEEDS .. to be a United Nations action .. an internationally agreed move.

And as far as Bush goes .. HLM you mentioned that isnt it a good thing that nations are pro-US .. well that depends on your pov .. Sure it is good to have the support of other nations .. and as I said in this move against Iraq .. it is a necessity imo. But .. where does it stop?? Iraq is only one state in Bush's 'Axis of Evil' nations .. North Korea was one and Iran (??) I think was the other. We havent heard this term Axis of Evil used since the Cold War .. and we know what kind of Witch hunt, Cold War fears engendered.


My point is if Bush considers any nation that does not support the US .. an enemy .. then how pink is pink?? How much dissent has to occur before a state becomes the next enemy and where does it stop? And not only that how many more thousands of innocents have to pay for crimes they did not commit?

9/11 was the ingenuity of a select few .. a group of insidious bloody minded vile terrorists! Not the general Muslim community or the general citizenry of these states. We need to deal with these offenders with the acuity precision of a laser!! And we have to operate within international law .. to acquire a mandate for such actions.

I do want to see Suddam Hussein pay for his many crimes .. and I do believe he may become a nuclear threat. I think if he had the nuclear capability now .. he would have used it already. I believe he may indeed be very close .. and that needs to be addressed. He is a vile and monstrous being .. I have no arguement with that! The Iraqi people have suffered for many a long year under his leadership ..

But what the terrorists wanted in striking NYC and Washington on 9/11 I think was to incite a jihad .. and to me they have got what they wanted. Because whether it is clear now or not .. Bush is going after Arab nations <even by the US support of Israel this message is out there> .. and they will percieve this to be an attack on Islam.

Which ofcourse it is not .. nor should it be!

If I was a neighbouring arab country .. with all the global talk about axis of evil nations .. and plans to invade Iraq .. I would be wondering if I was next .. and I would start making preparations to defend my borders from percieved ensuing aggression.

Its a messy business in all .. but I dont think the US has a mandate to clean up the world. If they are given one via the UN .. then that is a tale of another kind imo.

.. even though ethical issues remain ..

and as for Blair .. I dont like Blair or Howard .. I respected the British decision not to support the US in Vietnam .. and I support the Canadian decision not to suppport a US invasion of Iraq - I can understand and respect that postion.

Bush doesnt need additional military support of the UK and certainly not of Australia .. rather he seeks the moral backing of other nations .. so he can present the US as leading a popular stand against this evil nation not doing it independantly which would be very damaging for future US foreign relations.



health and healing<i></i>

hey good news I think .. Hussein has just relented and agreed to allow inspectors into Iraq to ascertain Iraq's nuclear capability .. and has accepted them <b> unconditionally</b>. Sure the US military base in Saudi is what instigated Hussein's change of attitude here .. but I see this as a promising outcome.

Although I suspect it makes little or no difference to Bush .. cos imo he wants into Iraq whether Hussein has relented or not. which will make it somewhat more difficult convincing other nation states that his crusade is a righteous one. health and healing<i></i>

Reasons to Take out Saddam
1) Saddam Hussein kills innocents in his own country along w/others
2) He bullies other countries
3) Is a serious threat to Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Iran, and most of all Israel
4) The US and other countries have reason to believe he is developing bio, chemical, and nuclear weapons
5) Former US President Clinton attacked Serbia- his excuse: it would help stabilize Eastern and all of Europe Bush's excuse for taking out Iraq should be- taking Hussein out of power is necessary for the stability of the region, and the world. Your affectionate uncle, Screwtape<i></i>

Woops! Forgot to reply to Sky's comment about being pro-American.
What does being pro-American mean to me? It means that you support the United States- the International
Superpower. It also means you support the coalition of nations against terror and tyranny. THAT in my mind, is definitely a good thing.
Your affectionate uncle, Screwtape<i></i>

God I hate politics! God I wish all these idiots would just grow up and get along! God I wish the US would take responsibility 4 it's past actions in disrupting the Middle East in the first place! I really wish none of this never has 2 happen--I can c the nessecity of diposing Saddam and clearing out all his weapons--same might b said 4 Pakistan and India, as far as weapons r concerned...unfortunately my vow of Ahimsa will not let me condone killing of <b> any</b> sort... The true human being is the meaning of the universe. He is a dancing star. He is the exploding singularity with infinite possibilities. <i></i>

Pakistan is an ally of American. India, while nucleuryly(is that a word lol) dangerous, in my mind poses no viable threat. Your affectionate uncle, Screwtape<i></i>

India is definitley no threat to the US .. imo .. Pakistan I wouldnt count on .. they were heavily leaned on to support the US in the Afghanistan issue. Pakistan is critically conflicted .. and has great internal instability itself.

You will not get any arguement from me re: your list of reasons for disposing of Hussein .. I mentioned some of them myself .. but more important than why we should .. but how we should .. imo ..

So far Iraq has relented and aceded to unconditional UN inspections .. that was the rationale for invading Iraq in the first place .. to nuetralise the nuclear threat via inspections and removal of relevant technology if discovered.

The big issue is .. who is the International/Global body for righting international wrongs?? The US??? .. no sir!

The UN was established for that very purpose .. and not one state independantly can assume that role .. can you not imagine why that would be a problem?? We cannot have one nation state promoting its own personal agenda (however worthy it may deem it) .. over the rest of the global community.

The War is supposed to be about bringing those responsible for 9/11 to justice ..

There is a very fine line between terrorism and freedom fighters .. and if we make this a broader agenda .. where do we draw the line in the sand?

Al Quaida needs to be the prime target .. not one self-suedo mandated nation erradicating rogue regimes from the planet ..

If you want to get picky .. then you have to start to see things as they are .. like danlo said .. the US has contributed to the instability of the middle east .. the US has supplied arms and financial to Israel even before it became a legitimate state .. in the days of the Israeli 'freedom fighters' .. the US has been connected with the IRA and their supply of weapons and financial aid .. which in the past they used against their oppressors the UK ..

If you want to look at things fairly then you must address the broad spectrum of US foreign policy too.

I support the removal of Hussein from a personal pov .. I support the tracking and arrests of Al Quaida (those responsible for 9/11) absolutely!

I regret the US has given Al Quaida exactly what it hoped for .. and I dont know how they could have avoided this outcome anyway ..

I support UN action to address rogue regimes .. and the kind of tyranny you speak of HLM .. but I do not support a carte blanch movement to remedy all anti-US sentiment by force of arms.

and I foresee such an action becoming nothing more than a witch hunt that will imo more than likely dissintegrate into the promoting of a range of political and economic agenda. health and healing<i></i>

I believe Sky, that you mentioned Al Qaida as being the main American enemy right now. Youre absolutely correct. Al Qaida members have fled to Iraq, and Im sure the iron-fisted Saddam knows about that. He doesnt care. He gave praise to the 9/11 attacks. Thats not cool, no fresco. Also, we have had much smaller-scale operations in other countries that harbor terrorism. What makes Iraq different? The difference is he needs to be taken out of power. And thats what America should do!
You mentioned the UN. There would be no UN if there wasnt a US. Unfortunately, under the current arguement, thats completley irrelevant. America-the superpower w/the greatest military capabilities in the history of mankind has the responsiblity to be freedom-fighters. Any military operation involving the UN has also included the US. America should right international wrongs. If we didnt, where would we be?? The US and UK are the only countries with enough muscle and backbone to take the initiative against tyrants, and other global evils. Your affectionate uncle, Screwtape<i></i>