Ahira's Hangar

I agree with you sky, in some respects...
The US is bigger & uglier than the rest and we're about the only one in the UN who can back up an ultimatum like W issued on Monday. Hussien was required by the UN security council to disarm after the gulf war, and he pretty much thumbed his nose at the UN, so the big bad US has to step in & make it happen. I agree Hussien should go, and we're probly the only ones who can do it.
I do find it ironic that we were the ones who supplied the weapons to him in the first place!! (in part) Now we tell them they must disarm - it's no wonder they hate the US.
As for Hussien, he reminds me of Robert in ASOFAI - bloodthirsty tyrant, with deranged & murderess(?sp) sons... Cripple but free; I was blind all the time I was learning to see<i></i>

you're right earthy .. there is no love lost for Hussein! He is a tyrannical despot .. yet he does retain some popular support even still.

I would have expected more popular uprising from the population against the Hussein regime .. but they are under strict control I am sure. I watched an interview with several Iraqi's in a coffee shop by a British journalist .. I was surprised that the consensus of opinion these people expressed was no love for Hussein but at the same time no trust or love for the US. One guy said .. that whether or not he hates Saddam Hussein .. he is not going to stand by an allow foreign invaders to reak havoc on Iraqi soil. That come what may .. his personal feelings aside .. he expressed solidarity for Hussein and claimed he would not abandon Iraq at this time .. and these were Iraqi refugees .. now attempting a way back into Iraq to offer support to his country!

Clearly he was under no obligation to express his views .. as he wasnt even in Iraq .. but nearby Amman ..

I wonder how much and what proportion of the Iraqi people actually will welcome the US 'liberation' force??

I also wonder how the US will maintain stability in Iraq and the region. I do not think Hussein deserves to live either .. but at the same time another report from a regional analyst said .. that Hussein albeit by his rough arm tactics [eg ombing and displacing the Kurds] .. he is the only one who has been able to maintain stability in Iraq .. a country historically plagued with dissentions and civil and internal warrings of the various factions within Iraq.

This is a state that possesses many tribal and religous factions that have long had a violent track history .. and border problems with Turkey and Iran particularly. I am concerned about a Turkish and Kurdish and a civil war breaking out once the Hussein's and his BAth (sp?) party/regime have been deposed.

As for your point re: the US being the big guys on the block that such tasks of regime change fall to .. I have to remind you that it is not only Iraq who has thumbed the security council .. the US did the same thing when the UN found them in absolute and unethical breach of treaty obligations re: the Nicaraguan fiasco! Even so .. and notwithstanding the inhumanity of US actions .. and their conviction under the UN charter .. the US walked away .. thumbing its nose at the UN.

The US .. as has Australia .. been a party to this kind of double standardised behaviour ..

However .. Iraq did thumb its nose at the UN .. and evenso .. has shown compliance with the inspection force that have re-entered Iraq .. and whether or not .. Iraqi compliance was or was not sufficient .. I prefer to be guided in that by the UN not the US .. And the Security Council did NOT determine Iraqi efforts were insufficient to justify an act of aggression .. that was a US-UK-Spanish decision.

The US did not seek UN guidance .. they withdrew their latest resolution .. not just because France threatened to veto .. but clearly Russia, China (members with veto) .. and Germany, Syria etc.. (a majority of members without veto) would not have supported this act at this time.

I ask myself .. why the haste to force of arms?

I pray for all involved on both sides of the battle .. We have a small Australian military presence there as well .. I pray for our troops safe return .. but I know that it is warfare .. not daycare .. when an omlet is attempted .. eggs are broken .. we will have losses .. and they will have losses ..

What remains to be seen .. is whether these losses of brothers, husbands, fathers, sons, daughters and mothers .. because each individual that falls .. civillian or military .. is someone cherished to someone. It is whether these losses .. are an acceptable price to pay for whatever appreciable gains can be secured ..

Iraqi liberation??

imho .. its not about liberating an oppressed people .. cos there are hundreds of thousands of people in the world living under oppression.

It is personal .. Bush wants Hussein and the current controlling government dead ..

We can all empathise with this desire for an evil despots removal .. but in doing so .. are we not creating another greater despot?

Maybe a little extreme .. but in committing this action [US-coalition war against Iraq].. we are assigning the unprecedented and questionable 'right' and jurisdiction of military force/intervention in the national affairs of other states to principally one state .. the US.

This cannot be a positive step .. I'd far rather rally WITH the international community under the auspices of the UN .. lead by the military might of the US.

By thus doing .. military might and dominance is harnassed within the restraints and objectivity of international law.
'Smoke me a kipper .. I'll be back for breakfast!

'health and healing<i></i>

Quote:he is the only one who has been able to maintain stability in Iraq .. a country historically plagued with dissentions and civil and internal warrings of the various factions within Iraq. most intelligent people, (which Saddam certainly is, dictator or not you must give him credit for taking over the Bath party and Iraq) would be able to keep peace in a country with strong-armed tactics, bio-weapons, and a decent-sized army.

If I'm correct here, Skyweir correct me if I'm not, didn't the Ottomans and British keep some level of peace in that country while they respectively occupied it during their colonial eras? But cede this, he has kept some level of stability, unlike the Afghan Taliban.. Further up, and further in! <i>Edited by: mhoram6910 at: 3/27/03 5:49:45 pm
</i>

The Ottoman empire and the British did keep relative control adn stabiliy of this region .. but you have to remember that Iraq wasnt a country for the most part .. it was still a region ..

I am not entirely sure .. but I think Iraq became a state after WW1 and was given its boundaries then .. by the British.

Which in many ways .. where this was done .. post WW1 and WW2 .. where nations were 'made' by Countries and beaurocracies georgraphically and intimately remote from the regions involved .. it was not often taken into consideration the dynamics of the regions involved .. nor the many fueding tribes and nations heaped together that never got along into one state.

So Iraq became a state .. but has for generations since been a conflicted nation .. within its geographical boundaries a mulitude of warring interests, religous and territorial and cultural/ie tribal groups.

So yes .. I get your point .. as it was precisely the point I attempted to make


'Smoke me a kipper .. I'll be back for breakfast!

'health and healing<i></i>

Quote: The Ottoman empire and the British did keep relative control adn stabiliy of this region .. but you have to remember that Iraq wasnt a country for the most part .. it was still a region .. I must respectfully say that I do not see the relevance of this..? Further up, and further in! <i></i>

well you see Mhoram .. it was not until WW1 that Iraq was created as a country .. so prior to that .. the several factions and tribes within Iraq were NOT clumped together under the contrived umbrella of statehood

.. so prior to statehood they didnt have to co-exist .. the various seperations remained seperate and distinct .. they werent brought under the one regime/sytem per se ..

The Ottoman and British empires oversaw the entire region ..

Hussein is arguably the first leader of that state to quash the volatility, warrings and overt dissensions that hostorically existed and were more exaggerated once Iraq gained statehood .. <i></i>

I see your point..

Quote: well you see Mhoram .. it was not until WW1 that Iraq was created as a country .. so prior to that .. the several factions and tribes within Iraq were NOT clumped together under the contrived umbrella of statehood

Yet you say they were still a region, how would this be any different from statehood for their political relationships? Further up, and further in! <i></i>

that would depend who the 'their' is you are talking about???

if it is 'their' meaing the factions within iraq .. well .. as a region they werent under the strict control of one government .. the entire region was overseen by a remote overseer .. the Ottomans or the Brits as the case may be ..

I am not saying things were smooth then .. I dont think they have ever been smooth sailing ..

Many years after Iraq became a state .. and Hussein gained control of the country .. he has held mostly :p neutralised the conflicting factions ..

unleashing vileness .. for sure .. yet maintaining control ..

as I said .. heavy handed tactics .. there's not much freedom to be had in Iraq .. nor much love between country men of the various factions .. its a hotch potch .. a messy and potentially bloody problem that is yet to be dealt with .. once Hussein has been removed .. <i></i>

So far, so good. Of course the war is not over and much remains to be done, but the results are great so far. Watching the Iraqi people celebrate is awesome; I haven't been this excited since the first free elections in Nicaragua in 1990. I wish the Iraqis well with their new freedom I hope that this day is the start of a new and prosperous nation. Most important, I wish the Iraqis the power to live their lives as they wish without fear. <i></i>

very true and very well said ..

however .. iraqi response to their 'liberation' and the coalition presence has been regrettably .. though predictably mixed ..

'Smoke me a kipper .. I'll be back for breakfast!

'health and healing<i></i>

Did anyone see that the Iraqis looted the Baghdad museum? It had ancient, priceless artifacts and works of art. Further up, and further in! <i></i>

I know there a big bunch of looting loonies!!!

kidding

oh but yeah .. oh god so tragic!!

do you think there were the ones responsible for looting the pyramids? the mummies tombs??

to be serious for a minute .. that really turned my stomach ..

geez .. I know this may be a natural expression by folks that've been oppressed for a long time .. but its still very very sad ..

government buildings and infrastructure I can understand .. but the museum .. oh for shame 'Smoke me a kipper .. I'll be back for breakfast!

'health and healing<i></i>

Some will be recovered, but still a tragedy. Hopefully some of it will turn up on the blackmarket over the next few years so it can be acquired and returned to Iraq. <i></i>

yeah you could be right 'Smoke me a kipper .. I'll be back for breakfast!

'health and healing<i></i>

They might go into private collections, then the government will get some, but not all back...still it's a tragedy. Further up, and further in! <i></i>