Ahira's Hangar

I thought that there was a thread about this book? In fact, I tracked this book down due to Taras recommendation in that thread? But this afternoon I could not find it. I do not know if the thread was a victim of the hacker attack, or if I just missed it because I am tired and my brain feels mushy...it it does turn up -- Syl, could you please either lock or delete this one?

Anyway, to get to the meat of the discussion -- I tracked down The Sparrow by Mary Doria Russell due to the recommendation by Taras.

I have not finished it yet, but so far it is a wonderful book, though I have a feeling it might be emotionally devastating before Russell will be finished with her story.

It tells the story of a Jesuit priest, from two intertwined time lines. In one, he is man who has survived some terrible thing (not yet known what) and is broken both mentally and physically. He is a seemingly ruined man, being cared for by his fellow Jesuits in Rome. In the other, he is an intelligent, caring, and good man, and we see him before whatever terrible thing has happened to him.

The mystery is, of course, how such a good and devoted person can be so broken, and how he could come to do the criminal acts attributed to him.

All that has been made clear so far is that what ever terrible thing that broke him took place on another world, inahbited by nonhuman intelligent beings, when he went there as a part of a Jesuit scientific mission of exploration. It is made clear that he is a linguist of great skill, who knows many languages, and who has a gift for learning new languages quickly. I would presume to guess that is part of why he was chosen for that mission?

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Our lives are the songs that sing the universe into existence.~David Zindell
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OMG, Duchess, The Sparrow, what a good book. It's a favorite of mine and Joy's (Dragonlilly on the watch). The Watch has a thread on the General SF/Fantasy forum, that would gladly welcome your input I'm sure, but you might want to wait till you finish the reading since I might have put spoilers in that thread. Mrs. Russell wrote a sequel, The childern of God. I gave copies of this book as Christmas presents in 2004, and I do not own a copy of my own.

The answers to your questions and plot elements revealed throughout the book.

I believe the book is superbly written and deals with profoundly deep matters, in a thoughtful and serious way. Have you reviewed any of the qestions tabulated at the end of the book? IMO, most of those questions were intelluctlly soft and very lightweight; however if you look over the Watch's thread you will see two or more questions I posed about the book.

FWIW, it was while reading The sparrow that I realized Dances with wolves was really a first contact SFnal story.

Regarding threads here, well I think there was one? But I'm not sure.

Lastly, was it hard for you to find this book, because around here my local B&N and Borders always have more than one copy anytime I've looked? taraswizard
Allan Rosewarne N9SQT/WDX6HQV
Chicago area
W/T forever, always
Plan C - http://planc.bravepages.com/main.html<i>Edited by: taraswizard at: 1/12/06 2:10 pm
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I had ordered the book from Amazon. I have never seen it in the science fiction section of any local store, including Borders and Barnes & Noble...
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Our lives are the songs that sing the universe into existence.~David Zindell
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I finished the book a few minutes ago. It is devastatingly good. Anyone who likes "deep" science fiction, stories of exporation, stories of "first contact", and anyone who likes stories that ask rather deep questions about religion and God without giving pat answers to those questions would probably really enjoy this book.

Did I mention that I really really really enjoyed it? ******************************************************

Our lives are the songs that sing the universe into existence.~David Zindell
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Duchess and all Hangarites,
IMO, The sparrow shares some plot elements and other similarities to the The mote in God's eye by Niven and Pournelle. A question I got from the text, are the Jan'ata really cvilized, by any common definition and understanding of the word, yes, they are highly intelligent and possess a culture, but are they civilized? Another issue of discussion from the text, here's a planet with two very different highly intelligent species, these two species probably arrived at their current state of intelligence through different routes of evolution. What are the implications of that circumstance? taraswizard
Allan Rosewarne N9SQT/WDX6HQV
Chicago area
W/T forever, always
Plan C - http://planc.bravepages.com/main.html<i></i>

I've got to find it then... *****
Before, you are wise; after, you are wise. In between you are otherwise.
Fravashi saying (from the formularies of Osho the Fool) <i></i>

I think most of the people here would very much enjoy the book.

I'm going to look for the sequel. From reading the thread over at the Watch, it looks like book stores stock it in the general literature section rather than the science fiction section, where I had been looking for it.

Taras mentioned the two intelligent species...I do not want to get too spoilery but they are very different from each other and from humans. One seems to have originated as a vegetarian herd species. The other started out as carnivores. I think that this ties them both to cultures we as humans have a hard time getting a handle on...

As to the civilized question -- by our 21st century standards, quite possibly they are not. However, they would certainly be as civilized as many human societies through the ages, given some of the cultures I have learned about in anthropology and history classes...I think I would have to start with a definition of civilized before I could really debate that. For example...would the Aztecs with their human sacrifices and probable cannibalism be civilized? How about the Spanish with the inquisition and also human sacrifices (whenever they burned a heretic that could legitamately be seen as a human sacrifice to Christ)?

That is a very interesting question, Taras, but I need to know a bit more about how you define a civilization before I start debating it. ******************************************************

Our lives are the songs that sing the universe into existence.~David Zindell
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Regarding bookstores shelving of this book; well, I seriously doubt a B&N or a Borders would shelf this in General fiction. IME, every on of their stores I've been in have shelved it with the other SF books. The used bookstore I frequent would probably shelf it with general fiction since that store bases their shelving on what is put on the spine of the book. (For example, they had one copy of Years of rice and salt SF and another in gen. fic. since it did not have an SF on the spine). taraswizard
Allan Rosewarne N9SQT/WDX6HQV
Chicago area
W/T forever, always
Plan C - http://planc.bravepages.com/main.html<i></i>

Heh. Well, perhaps I will check one more time, then check for it on the internet if I cannot find it any of the local stores...

If the second book is even remotely as good as the first, it is well worth the effort of tracking it down! ******************************************************

Our lives are the songs that sing the universe into existence.~David Zindell
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I did manage to track down Children of God at the local Barnes & Noble. They actually had both Children of God and The Sparrow, both in the science fiction section, the first time I have seen them in a store.

I only had a few minutes of reading time today, but so far Children of God is very good indeed. ******************************************************

Our lives are the songs that sing the universe into existence.~David Zindell
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Children of God is very good, and a very worthy followup to The Sparrow.

In addition to all of those thorny questions about God, Russell introduces some equally thorny questions about social justice. Great stuff, and very well written. ******************************************************

Our lives are the songs that sing the universe into existence.~David Zindell
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since Fisty is now reading The Sparrow ******************************************************

Our lives are the songs that sing the universe into existence.~David Zindell
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OOOOOH YES!!! Excellent book!!!!!

I really like the Jesuits in the book. I wonder how accurate Russell's view of them is. I just emailed this to them:Quote:To my knowledge, I have never met a Jesuit. Nor have I heard anything about your organization, aside from the fact that you are an order of Catholic priests. I just read a book called "The Sparrow" by Mary Doria Russell. The following paragraph is amazon.com's editorial review:

In 2019, humanity finally finds proof of extraterrestrial life when a listening post in Puerto Rico picks up exquisite singing from a planet which will come to be known as Rakhat. While United Nations diplomats endlessly debate a possible first contact mission, the Society of Jesus quietly organizes an eight-person scientific expedition of its own. What the Jesuits find is a world so beyond comprehension that it will lead them to question the meaning of being "human." When the lone survivor of the expedition, Emilio Sandoz, returns to Earth in 2059, he will try to explain what went wrong... Words like "provocative" and "compelling" will come to mind as you read this shocking novel about first contact with a race that creates music akin to both poetry and prayer.

In my opinion, Russell makes Jesuits look very, very good. I was wondering if any of you have read the book, and, if so, what they thought of it. I'm interested in whether you think she depicted your organization accurately. It's certainly possible for Jesuits, on the whole, to be quite different than they are in the book, yet still be people that I would think highly of. I'm just curious how close she came to the mark.
Emilio is SUCH a great character! Among the best characters I've read. I truly felt his struggle - if that word can come anywhere near describing what he feels. His honesty about how he felt all along, before the signals were received; his rapture when they made contact; the rage/hate after it all. VERY convincing!! A fully-explored, real person!

I'm very reluctant to say the Jana'ata are not civilized. I doubt there will ever be a definition of the word that everyone living today agrees upon. Emilio said it very well:Quote:"There are no beggars on Rakhat. There is no unemployment. There is no overcrowding. No starvation. No environmental degradation. There is no genetic disease. The elderly do not suffer decline. Those with terminal illness do not linger. They pay a terrible price for this system, but we too pay, Felipe, and the coin we use is the suffering of children. How many kids starved to death this afternoon, while we sat here? Just because their corpses aren't eaten doesn't make our species any more moral!"I think nearly every possible freedom for every single person is the height of civilization. But that means a huge percentage of the earth's current population, and probably every government, are not civilized. How strenuously can I argue against a system that has less freedoms, but so much less suffering? I don't know... Not black & white for me.
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And what are the odds that either the Jana'ata or the Runa evolve, eventually becoming the Friends of Man?Quote:It was the most extraordinary thing he'd ever encountered. He knew he was getting esters and aldehydes, and the smell of burnt sugars certainly, but the scent was staggeringly complex.
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Opening the flask, breaking its vacuum, Kitheri was met by a plume of sweetly camphoric enzyme by-products giving off notes of basil and tarragon, by chocolate aromatics, sugar carbonyl and pyrazine compounds carrying the suggestion of vanilla, by hints of nutmeg and celery seed and cumin in the products of dry distillation created during roasting. And, overlaying all, the tenuous odor of volatile short-chain carbons, the saline memorial of an alien ocean: sweat from the fingers of Emilio Sandoz. ____________
Highdrake's mastery of spells and sorcery was not much greater than his pupil's, but he had clear in his mind the idea of something very much greater, the wholeness of knowledge. And that made him a mage.<i></i>

Highdrake wrote Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"There are no beggars on Rakhat. There is no...How many kids starved to death this afternoon, while we sat here? Just because their corpses aren't eaten doesn't make our species any more moral!" Taking the excerpted quote which I partially copied, as part of Fr. Sandoz's internal monologue or as part of his interviews with his Jesuit brethern, it's really no more than a shallow rationalization or if you can term it an apologetic for the VaRakhti's social structure (I do not remember the particular passage nor its context) . There's no unemployment because the reproduction is strictly controlled by either predation by the Jana'ata on the Runa, or Jana'ata's strictly enforced reproduction rules and controlled access to females. Same for most of the other effects. Their society is more efficient, but so is the human society described in Soylent Green.

Carrying over a question I put on the Watch, the VaRakhti do not seem to have a religion. A linguist who's also a priest works on their languages and discovers no words for God (since I do not have a copy of the Sparrow I can not verify that 100%); furthermore, three more priests find the beings do not seem to have religious practices and not one of them finds that odd, strange or unusual. I think both Joy and Duchess talked about the Jana'ata having a mythos regarding their creation, IMO that ain't the same as a religion.

I keep my original assertion that this book has a large amount of intertextuality with The mote in God's eye by Niven and Pournelle.

Two additional points, some critics of the book have said Ms. Russell's protrayals of Jesuits is ahistorical, Jesuits in history have acted more like the Jesuits in Japan and other parts of East and South Asia. Others have found the character who is some what patterned after Russell herself to be annoying enough to take them out of the text entirely. Anyone agree? taraswizard
Allan Rosewarne N9SQT/WDX6HQV
Chicago area
W/T forever, always
Plan C - http://planc.bravepages.com/main.html
Buff_fans_Chicago http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/buffy_fans_chicago/<i></i>

Sandoz also said, "I am not defending them. I am trying to explain to you what happened and why." I am not defending them either. I will always try to stop anyone from eating or enslaving a sentient race or individual. It is wrong, and I don't care if that's only my subjective opinion.

But the word in question is civilized, and I'm not sure there can be a civilization that does not commit, or at least allow, wrong things to happen. IOW, for me, the presence of wrongdoing does not automatically make a society uncivilized. ____________
Highdrake's mastery of spells and sorcery was not much greater than his pupil's, but he had clear in his mind the idea of something very much greater, the wholeness of knowledge. And that made him a mage.<i></i>