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 Post subject: Science fiction does it have a purpose or a future
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2004 2:37 am 
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Spider Robinson, a science fiction author wrote the following after he when to TorCon 03 (WorldCon 2003), it was originally seen in a Canadian newspaperQuote:Forward, into the past

Why are our imaginations retreating from science and space, and into fantasy? asks SPIDER ROBINSON

By SPIDER ROBINSON
Monday, September 8, 2003 - Page A17

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I've recently returned from Torcon 3, the 61st World Science Fiction Convention, held at the end of August in Toronto. I left it deeply concerned for the future -- not merely of my chosen genre or my chosen country, but my species.

I served this Worldcon as its toastmaster, and presiding over our annual Hugo Awards ceremony required me to make a speech. This being the 50th year that Hugos have been given for excellence in SF, I devoted my remarks to the present depressing state of the field. Three short steps into the New Millennium, written SF is paradoxically in sharp decline.

My genre has always had its ups and downs, but this is by far its worst, longest downswing. Sales are down, magazines are languishing, our stars are aging and not being replaced. And the reason is depressingly clear: Those few readers who haven't defected to Tolkienesque fantasy cling only to Star Trek, Star Wars, and other Sci Fi franchises.

Incredibly, young people no longer find the real future exciting. They no longer find science admirable. They no longer instinctively lust to go to space.

Just as we've committed ourselves inextricably to a high-tech world (and thank God, for no other kind will feed five billion), we appear to have become nearly as terrified of technology, of science -- of change -- as the Arab world, or the Vatican. We are proud both of our VCRs, and our claimed inability to program them.

I'm not knocking fantasy, but if we look only backward instead of forward, too, one day we will find ourselves surrounded by an electorate that has never willingly thought a single thought their great-grandparents would not have recognized. That's simply not acceptable. That way lies inconceivable horror, a bin Laden future for our grandchildren.

SF's central metaphor and brightest vision, lovingly polished and presented as entertainingly as we knew how to make it, has been largely rejected by the world we meant to save. Because I was born in 1948, the phrase I'll probably always use to indicate something is futuristic is "space age."

There were doubtless grown adults at Torcon 3 who were born after the space age ended. The very existence of the new Robert A. Heinlein Awards, given for the first time at Torcon to honour works that inspire manned exploration of space, proves a need was perceived to foster such works.

About the only part of our shared vision of the future that actually came to pass was the part where America just naturally took over the world. But while it's prepared to police (parts of) a planet, the new Terran Federation is so far not interested enough to even glance at another one.

Inconceivable wealth and limitless energy lie right over our heads, within easy reach, and we're too dumb to go get them -- using perfectly good rockets to kill each other, instead.

The day Apollo 11 landed, I knew for certain men would walk on Mars in my lifetime. So did the late Robert Heinlein -- I just saw him say so to Walter Cronkite last weekend, on kinescope.

I'm no longer nearly so sure. The Red Planet is as close as it's been in 60,000 years -- and the last budget put forward in Canada contained not a penny for Mars. (Please, go to www.marssociety.com and sign the protest petition there.)

At Torcon 3, I caught up with Michael Lennick, co-producer of a superb Canadian documentary series about manned spaceflight, Rocket Science. His next project examines the growing phenomenon of people who refuse to believe we ever landed on the moon. Not because he sees them as amusing cranks . . . but because they're becoming as common as Elvis-nuts. And it's hard to argue with their logic: It beggars belief, they say, that we could possibly have achieved moon flight . . . and given it up.

On the other hand, I take heart that SF still exists, 50 years after the first Hugo was awarded. My wife's family are Portuguese fisherfolk from Provincetown, Mass., where every summer they've held a ceremony called the Blessing of the Fleet, in which the harbour fills with boats and the archbishop blesses their labours. The 50th-ever blessing was the last. There's no fishing fleet left. For the first time in living memory, there is not a single working fishing boat in P-town . . . because there are no cod or haddock left on the Grand Banks. For all its present problems, science fiction as a profession seems to have outlasted pulling up fish from the sea.

I believe with all my heart that the pendulum will return, that ignorance will become unfashionable again one day, that my junior colleagues are about to ignite a new renaissance in science fiction, and that our next 50 years will make the first 50 pale by comparison, taking us all the way to immortality and the stars themselves. If that does happen, some of the people who will make it so were in Toronto.

People still believe that men fished the Grand Banks, once. Some even dream of going back. SF readers have never stopped dreaming. We can't, you see. We simply don't know how.

B.C. writer Spider Robinson's latest novel is Callahan's Con.
He discusses some valid issues; however, one issue he developes is 'what is the purpose of science fiction'? RA Heinlein (who has his own thread), who Spider extensively references, believed a purpose of science fiction was to promote human space exploration. And the instructor of my class, Mrs. Elizabeth Hull aka Mrs. Frederic Pohl, has called science fiction a literature of ideas, well, the logical rhetorical next step is to inquire what are the ideas?

The floor is thrown open.
taraswizard
Allan Rosewarne N9SQT/WDX6HQV
Chicago area
W/T forever, always
Plan C - http://planc.bravepages.com/main.html<i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: Science fiction does it have a purpose or a future
PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2004 9:07 am 
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Pilot

Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 10:01 pm
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I think SF has 2 main purposes - first to entertain, because if it doesn't no one will read it. Second, is to promote greater knowledge of science, and to apply that knowledge to a lot of 'what if' scenarios. What if humanity colonised space, what if global warming made Earth unlivable for humans, etc <i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: Science fiction does it have a purpose or a future
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2004 1:36 am 
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Lady Scryer
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I would agree with what Autojay said -- and I would also dispute what Robinson said about it being a genre in decline. There are writers working today - such as David Zindell, David Brin, Dan Simmons, Iaian Banks, and Lois McMaster Bujold who can fully hold their own against any of the old masters, IMHO.
Also -- has anyone else been seeing a bit of a shift lately from the traditional space opera to more stories based on biological matters? Books and series like Darwin's Radio, Darwin's Children, Evolution, and The Neanderthal Parallex all seem to deal with rather fundamental questions about our humanity -- but on a more biological/evolutionary basis than traditional science fiction does...even Robinson's Mars books, while being primarily about the colonization of our neighboring world have an awful lot of genetic engineering and ecosystem studies in them... ******************************************************

Our lives are the songs that sing the universe into existence.~David Zindell
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 Post subject: Spider Robinson...The man and his mouth
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2004 9:36 am 
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Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 12:00 pm
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I came across this last year...this is what I thought then. (Actually, this is a shortened, cleaned-up version.)


"So, Mr.Robinson, the well-known Heinlein wannabe, thinks that by reading fantasy instead of SF I'm not only contributing to the rapid decline of civilization as we know it, but that it's undeniable evidence of my ignorance.

Well, screw him and the horse he rode in on.

I've been reading both SF and Fantasy for over 35 years now and I'll fight to the death, (Robinson's, of course), for my right to continue doing so.

A lot of hard core SF readers don't much care for fantasy, as is their right, but at least they usually acknowledge our right to do so. Robinson's self-serving article is not only arrogant and narrow-minded in the extreme, but it does beg the question. "Exactly who's the ignorant one here?"

AND, if it's true that we fantasy readers are the doom of society, what then for those evil bastards who don't care for either end of the genre. What about those Hell Spawn who read westerns and spy stories and murder mysteries...

AND, worst of all, what of those sick, demented fools who are not into reading for pleasure at all. They read nothing! Can you believe that such vile perverted creatures actually exist? Best we round them all up and, at the very least, do something to prevent them breeding...thus doing our bit to ensure Robinson's vision of the future is suitably protected.

The man's a bloody joke.

Thus endeth the lesson."


I haven't changed my mind.
Adios

<i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: Spider Robinson...The man and his mouth
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2004 2:18 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 7:36 pm
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For authors (fantasy & scifi), the one "hinted at" truth that is uncomfortable is: the amount of reading that people do in these genres has declined.

I don't know why this is, although I guess that a big part may be videogames that have evolved so far as to provide a very compelling and immersive interactive fantasy experience (more fantasy than scifi, but scifi too).

Regardless, change occurs naturally and it cannot be stopped nor is there any good that comes from anger, whining or crying.

I love reading in both genres, and I love writing in scifi. I think that my first series captures an issue of importance - playing out an idealogical scenario of a new society. I agree that the story needs to be entertaining and interesting. That and speculative thought - if the whole thing is well written - will still be able to find an audience.

The changing market is frustrating. It is much more difficult for a writer to actually make a living in the scifi genre than it has been in a long time.

But it is what it is. <i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: Spider Robinson...The man and his mouth
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2004 3:12 pm 
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Lady Scryer
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I love reading both fantasy and science fiction, too...well, I will read just about anything to be honest.

But I am wondering if sales for books in general are down, not just SF & Fantasy...and if so, there are a lot of reasons:

1. Americans are nuts and work way too many hours. This goes for both spouses, and children are expected by their school coaches to have practice year round for their sports, including major holidays and weekends (my son in high school has year round practices for two sports, and sometimes has to practice 7 days a week, and has had practice on major holidays like New Year's Day).
2. Too many claims on what little free time we have:
TV
sports
friends
internet
videos
dvd's
music
video games
church
family
3. A lot of younger people seem to get very turned of on reading at school. I am fighting this with my own children. I go out of my way to find books that they WANT to read. But given how frantically busy and overscheduled most families are, I wonder how many other parents have the time and energy to do that. I only do because reading is such a joy to me. ******************************************************

Our lives are the songs that sing the universe into existence.~David Zindell
<i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: Spider Robinson...The man and his mouth
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2004 3:58 pm 
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Pilot

Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 7:36 pm
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Sales of books are not down, sales of genre fiction are indeed down. Scifi and Fantasy are both at a 20 year low.

Non-fiction is by far the currently hottest book market.

These things tend to be cyclical, but scifi especially is suffering from lack of new readers - those under 30.

Why? Best guess is that "entertaining imaginative needs fulfillment" is being met through three strong mediums, rather than just one. 3D gaming, advanced effects movies, and books.

My gut instinct is that the market for scifi-fantasy content is NOT dwindling, indeed I think it is growing. But because fulfillment is met through 3 mediums rather than 1 now, the market is segmented.

Especially gamers. Newer games are immersive and time consuming - just as are books. Gamers tend to game, readers tend to read.

And even for those who do both, there is only so much time in a day so the amount of time spent with each becomes dramatically reduced. <i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: Spider Robinson...The man and his mouth
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 9:25 pm 
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Master Pilot
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Personally, I blame the big publishing houses and the big book chains. They glut the market with more books that can ever sell, stock the few genre books that will turn a profit at mass rates, clearance some, and send the rest back coverless. It's slash and burn tactics that allow for few authors who don't write outside the formula. If it was just the chaff that got whittled away, that might be ok, but if you look at what's on the best-seller list and realize that everything is sliding towards that level of quality...

It's not video games or movies, trust me. I am part of the Nintendo generation. I was into video games when it was still uncool. No, the kids you lose to games and movies are the kids that never would have read anyway.

I'll tell you one thing about people like me in my generation; we're not going to buy crap just for brand/genre loyalty. The market's being flooded with it, and boo hoo, nobody's buying.

More authors, less books. ________________
I wanna feel the metamorphosis and cleansing I've endured within my shadow. Change is coming. Now is my time. Listen to my muscle memory. Contemplate what I've been clinging to. -Tool, "Forty-Six & Two" <i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: Spider Robinson...The man and his mouth
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2004 9:42 pm 
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Pilot

Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 7:36 pm
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That's an interesting insight. Thanks.

Now I do hope you weren't thinking that I was suggesting that younger people don't read - they just play games. That was not my point at all.

The point I was making is that we all have only so much time each day. When that time gets split among activities, then of course there is not as much time available to spend on one thing.

In the pre-game, 3 local channel TV days - if you wanted to experience something like scifi or fantasy the only real choice was books. So that was where most of the time was spent. (Pong doesn't cut it as immersive fantasy).

But I do agree that the bookstores are suffering from "formula-itis." Sometimes I feel like its nothing but cloneville when I go into a bookstore. That's why I chose to go with an independent publisher.

Of course, that also has its drawbacks because the independents' have a very difficult time getting on very many bookstore shelves - rarely ever the big chain stores. That means matching up readers to books becomes quite difficult.

But I'm happy to know you enjoy reading and I hope you find some new authors whose work you enjoy! <i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: Science fiction does it have a purpose or a future
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 5:03 pm 
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Master Pilot

Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2003 1:08 pm
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Location: Chicago suburbs
Well, Spider Robinson's essay certainly started a lively discussion. And I am going to touch on several things that have been debated.

For myself, as already talked about on another thread in another forum, when I was much younger, like HS and early college, I was like no fantasy guy, SF only for me. But nowadays, I am much more in tune to fantasy. And to Spider's argument fantasy bad, SF good. Well in my class last week Fred Pohl came to talk about Gateway and other things, and he said fantasy and SF have always been all mixed up together, and not as seperate as some might want or imagine.

And I agree with Autojay, the bigger worry for society as a whole, is that vast unfortunate majority who do not read at all. And I do not mean just novels and fiction, they do not read newspapers, news magazines, non-fiction, really anything. They get their news of the world from Fox, CNN, CBS, etc or Limbaugh, or Hannity. Those folks really spell the end of a meaningful intellectual life as we have known it to now. I think we should be happy if they had the thoughts of their grandparents, potentially they will not have any thoughts at all.

As to the current dip in SF and F sales of books, well many factors and think Syl just missed the mark by blaming publishers. But not for the reasons he said. How much marketing are publishers putting into new authors, almost none. The marketing folks say 'it easier to push more volumes of Tolkien through the retail chain, because since the movies have been such big hits we'll sell thousands of extra units. Than to promote some new talent.' Notable book releases in 2003, William Gibson, well Neuromancer was published in 1984 so he's not a new author, Neal Stephenson, first novel 1988 so not new either, Margaret Atwood, not a new author. And Christopher Paolini, a new author, and publishing phenomena. Marketers play it safe.

Hope my above remarks make sense. keep talking everyone. taraswizard
Allan Rosewarne N9SQT/WDX6HQV
Chicago area
W/T forever, always
Plan C - http://planc.bravepages.com/main.html<i></i>


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