Ahira's Hangar

originally started by Danlo:

Posted: 03 Jan 2003 09:16 Post subject: Glory Season by David Brin and strong Sci-Fi females

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I wish I didn't have 2 rush off 2 work right now and could talk more about this... I thought alot about this issue yesterday. Didn't matter if I was working or resting. I kept saying 2 myself, "There is a severe lack of very strong female characters in fantasy." Then I remembered Maia in Glory Season by David Brin. When I think of Brin I usually think of all his incredible Sci-Fi, and I'm kicking myself 4 forgetting he wrote a fantasy!

Glory Season is an extremely good fantasy, akin 2 Mordant's Need, with little dashes of Earthsea and Martin. Earthsea 4 it's mystery and Martin 4 it's realism and adventure. This is the perfect book 4 the Duchess! I will b back w/much more on this! I consider this a very important issue, and this book should NOT b missed by fans of good high, intelligent adult fantasy! (Actually, I've never seen it discussed on any board I've ever been 2. Ah such a jewel awaits discovery!!!) And now Danlo looked in that direction, too. He remembered that snowy owls mate in the darkest part of deep winter, and so along with this beautiful white bird perched in a tree a hundred feet away, he turned to face the sea as he watched and waited.

Ahira, Ahira, he called out silently to the sky. Ahira, AhiraEdited by: danlo60 at: 2/8/03 10:46:32 am



MsMary
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Posted: 03 Jan 2003 12:16 Post subject: Re: Glory Road by David Brin

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I haven't read any Brin yet, though I have been meaning to. Is this a good book to start with?

~MsMary~ "Does the walker choose the path, or the path the walker?"



danlo60
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Posted: 03 Jan 2003 20:08 Post subject: Re: Glory Road by David Brin

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From what little that I do know about ur literary taste, MsMary, I would say yes this a very good place to start. Then, if u do enjoy his style, read The Postman (the REAL Postman, not the movie!) and continue on 2 Startide Rising and the Uplift series.

Kinda like Pern, Glory Season starts off with a dash of sci-fi but then the story is almost complete fantasy. As a, hopefully, somewhat sensitive male I believe that Brin makes an xtremely good effort of showing a woman's pov in the 2, or 3, lead female characters. Maia is a very strong, competent survivor with her human side 2. I think what makes her unique is her humanity--she's just like one of us. We could do the same things and make the same decisions as her. Her strenght of character can blow u away at times.

Just a very good, straightforward female lead (who doesn't crowd the lead) with deep inner honor. Don't laugh, there actually r some, mayb 2 or 3, Dragonlance books out there with heroic female characters that r not 1/2 bad. But real, believable, "stand alone" fantasy female leads r hard 2 come by. Maia doesn't have Linden Avery's baggage, she's much more world-wise than Terisa Morgan and could b just as strong as Arya and Daenerys in Martin's ASOIAF.

This is the only fantasy Brin has written. This is a heavy duty, tough adventure! And now Danlo looked in that direction, too. He remembered that snowy owls mate in the darkest part of deep winter, and so along with this beautiful white bird perched in a tree a hundred feet away, he turned to face the sea as he watched and waited.

Ahira, Ahira, he called out silently to the sky. Ahira, Ahira




danlo60
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Posted: 04 Jan 2003 09:27 Post subject: Review: Glory Season by David Brin

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Quote:The plot of Glory Season is a coming of age story that centers around the character of Maia. Maia is a var with an identical twin (a form of cloning that happens both on Earth and Stratos). At the beginning of the story, she leaves the clone family that raised and educated her (in a rather institutional creche) to try to carve out her own niche in the world. For Stratos this is pretty standard pattern that millions of vars before her have followed. But Maia gets caught up, quite by happenstance, in the greatest crisis her planet has had since they drove off the Enemy. A representive from the Human Phylum (a term that indicates that Stratos is only one of many genetic experiments to take place in human history), the Outsider, has found Stratos. Renna (an unmodified man!) is part of a group of explorers that is determined to bring together all the scattered human populations in the Galaxy. In fact, he is the only forward scout for a load of colonist already on their way.

Curiously, not much changes in the story. Maia changes a great deal which is why I say the plot of Glory Season is a comming of age story. Stratos, however, changes little. It is certainly clear the planet will have to change a great deal in the future, but by the end of the story Stratos still has not gotten over its cultural shock enough to know what to do. The end of the story is definitely left open for a sequel, and it would certainly be tempting for Brin to come back to world he has so richly constructed.

The world of Stratos is not some feminist utopia (or distopia that would please Rush Limbaugh). Although, the Perkenites would certainly like to make it a world that Andrea Dworkin would consider paradise, the people in it are not idealogical straw figures to be knocked down or lauded as the case may be. They are human beings who have culturally adjusted to a different way of reproducing. Feminist issues are certainly discussed, but if there is a hidden agenda in Glory Season, the only one that I could find was the rather obvious idea that men and women do need each other, no matter how much they might try to deny.Thou the book does have it's elements of Sci-Fi the "Stratos Experiment" was essentially knocked all the way back 2 low-tech days by the force of the Enemy's attacks. So what essentially happens is that u have a neat little fantasy adventure set on a world created in a futuristic sci-fi universe.

I got this review from the Sci-Fi Book Index and though I could not find the author's name (his homepage doen't connect, anymore) it is clear that he is also a great Orson Scott Card afficiado. 2 of his 5 reviews there r OCS stuff. He has personally interviewed David Brin twice and indicates that the reason this book may have slipped through the cracks was that it was written during the height of Brin's 1st Uplift trilogy's immense popularity. Brin fans were so blown away by Uplift and so hungry 4 more they kinda looked at this book and just said "what's this...". Thus missing a very cool little gem...imho...


And now Danlo looked in that direction, too. He remembered that snowy owls mate in the darkest part of deep winter, and so along with this beautiful white bird perched in a tree a hundred feet away, he turned to face the sea as he watched and waited.

Ahira, Ahira, he called out silently to the sky. Ahira, AhiraEdited by: danlo60 at: 1/4/03 7:37:53 am




Duchess of Malfi
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Posted: 06 Jan 2003 15:26 Post subject: Re: Review: Glory Season by David Brin

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I'll have to check this book out, Danlo! I love Brin's science fiction -- Startide Rising is one of my all time favorite SF books -- I didn't even know that he had written a fantasy. And I even got a Borders giftcard at Christmas that I haven't used yet.
He does write good, strong, positive women, like Gillian Baskin in the Uplift books. Ankh-Morpork people considered that spelling was a sort of optional extra. They believed in it the same way they believed in punctuation; it didn't matter where you put it, so long as it was there.~Terry Pratchett




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Posted: 15 Jan 2003 14:03 Post subject: Re: Review: Glory Season by David Brin

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I think Glory Season is probably the best book by Brin I have read. By the way, I don't count it as fantasy. I think it's clear science fiction.

I think the difference between fantasy and science fiction is not the level of technology displayed. I think the real difference lies in the underlying explanation of the world. Fantasy relies on magic and supernatural things happening because the world is just that way different from ours. It's at odds with modern science and doesn't care. Science fiction has to have or give the illusion of having a believable scientific explanation for everything, even if the explanation is Star Trek style technobabble.

Glory Season has a lot of science in it: evolution biology, sociology, chaos theory, and no magic at all. The book is mainly concerned with emergent patterns of complex systems. A complex system is the board in the Game of Life (famous in real life too) as well as the whole humankind of the planet. The two cases are clearly set to mirror each other, but I think I should avoid spoiling the matter further. I loved it when I realized the science in this book was going to make sense. Yes! Brin had a clue this time! (He doesn't always; the Second Uplift Trilogy has some huge implausibilities.)

I have noticed that in literature societies ruled by women tend to be either much better or much worse places than our own, and that the extreme chosen correlates with the writer's gender. Men write leather-clad women who keep all men in brutal slavery and change lovers like socks (except for the heroine who falls in love with the hero) and women write wise women who guide the community to live in harmony with the nature and each other. I'm on the lines that there is way less difference between the sexes than people think, and therefore find the world of Glory Season probably the most believable female-dominated world I have ever read of.




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Posted: 09 Feb 2003 14:37 Post subject: My thoughts

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I'm with Nerdanel. This seems like a perfectly straightforward science fiction story, set in a colony that deliberately chose a more static society.

Likewise it was impressive that the colony in question proved simply...human. Better in some ways, worse in others (although in general it seemed like a pretty nice place to live--unless you're male and get seasick ).

Interesting to me also was this story was set at the very very start of vast change, not in the middle of it. And the focus remained on individuals, on their choices and lives. I was tres impressed. And this is one book I often recommend.





danlo60
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Posted: 09 Feb 2003 16:10 Post subject: Re: My thoughts

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U both r right it is really Sci-Fi--I wrote my 1st post 2 fast and it's been about 9 or 10 years since I read it--the ships, ports and the castle she's locked in reminded me of fantasy. Yes like Gillian Baskin, Atheclena and others in the Uplift Series Brin can def write strong female Sci-Fi females. That's y I changed the title of this topic when I moved it over here.

Some of the devices, lone man fallen from space/Sarah's strength/balloons, r used later in the 2nd Uplift series. And now Danlo looked in that direction, too. He remembered that snowy owls mate in the darkest part of deep winter, and so along with this beautiful white bird perched in a tree a hundred feet away, he turned to face the sea as he watched and waited.

Ahira, Ahira, he called out silently to the sky. Ahira, Ahira




Duchess of Malfi
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Posted: 23 Mar 2003 20:19 Post subject: glory season

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Hmmm. About a hundred pages in and so far it's reminding me a bit of some of the science fiction of Sherri Tepper, in that she also writes stories set on worlds with a great deal of social engineering that deals with sex roles.
I would hate to be a woman on this world, as the men have been modified to come into rutt during certain time periods.




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Posted: 25 Mar 2003 22:04 Post subject: Re: glory season

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I especially wouldn't like being a woman on this world with the men coming into rutt during one part of the year and the women coming into season in another part of the year. Our lives are the songs that sing the universe into existence.~David ZindellEdited by: Duchess of Malfi at: 7/18/03 6:34 pm




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Posted: 26 Mar 2003 11:55 Post subject: Re: glory season

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About halfway in and I am enjoying the character of Maia. She's spunky and smart, very young, but willing to work hard and learn from her experiences. It's a true shame that there is little or no way for such a bright young woman to get ahead in the society where she lives (so far at least). Our lives are the songs that sing the universe into existence.~David ZindellEdited by: Duchess of Malfi at: 7/18/03 6:35 pm





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Posted: 03 Apr 2003 02:16 Post subject: Re: glory season

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I enjoyed this book greatly, as I have with all of the David Brin books I have read. I would recommend it!! As always with David Brin, it is well written, well plotted, and makes you think... Our lives are the songs that sing the universe into existence.~David ZindellEdited by: Duchess of Malfi at: 7/18/03 6:36 pm





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Posted: 23 Jul 2003 04:23 Post subject: Re: glory season

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Just started reading this in some part because of the comments in this thread, and, also, because of the comments on the printed James A. Triptree awards list. Some of the awards judges saw the book as a little controversial. And wanted to read for myself. BTW, if anyone cares, I am postponing reading Ammonite by Nicola Griffith to read this. Edited by: taraswizard at: 7/23/03 2:24 am





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Posted: 23 Jul 2003 12:12 Post subject: Re: glory season

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I do hope that you will enjoy it then! Our lives are the songs that sing the universe into existence.~David Zindell
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taraswizard
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Posted: 24 Jul 2003 19:55 Post subject: Re: glory season

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Quote:I do hope that you will enjoy it then! So far I am very much. to update anyone who might care, I have got to the part of the story where Maia has taken temporary refuge with the keepers of the metal foundry.

To add my $0.02. The basis of Stratos society is not a sexually based, it is caste, class and status based. The top are the clans of the clone sisters, they hold the power, wealth, prestige, knowledge. The men and the vars, are the also rans. Of course, there supposedly exists a mechanism and entry point for vars to enter the privelge hall of the clans, but I get the idea so far that happens so seldom as to be practically never, even if a var bears a single daughter, that does not entitle her to entry to the halls of status.

On a writing basis, I am finding Brin's writing very personal, and engaging. I was all teared up in the part after Leia died in the storm and I felt real bad for Maia. More to follow. taraswizard
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started by duchess of malfi:

Posted: 24 Jul 2003 21:11 Post subject: glory season

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Yes, that is the crux of it, isn't it? The clone clans hold the power, wealth, and most of the knowledge, and in most of the clans, the vars and males are more or less nonentities (there are some exceptions to this, as you will discover later, as some of the clans do seem to cherish their sons). Even girls as bright and talented as the twins have to find some sort of niche -- but all of the niches are taken!
I found this book to be especially interesting as that it is set at the very beginning of what appears to be great changes in the society -- as opposed to the endings, as we usually see...



taraswizard
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Posted: 02 Aug 2003 15:36 Post subject: Re: glory season

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taraswizard wrote awhile ago Quote:So far I am very much. to update anyone who might care, I have got to the part of the story where Maia has taken temporary refuge with the keepers of the metal foundry
As an update, my progress in reading I am better than 7/8s way through. And boy did I like this!! She and Brod, a boy midshipman from their pirated and captured sea vessel, are at Jellicoe Beacon in the archepeligo known as Dragon's Teeth. Trying to rescue, Maia's sister and Renna, the emissary from the other human colonized worlds.

The world of Stratos seems to be 'very human', despite its obvious biological differences (the reproductive differences). Maia is a wonderful main character, she builds on her knowledge her mother clan gave her, but she makes up her own mind about things. Brin writes her as a very engaging character, you feel her doubts, fears, triumphs and pains.

Now for some further comments not my own. However, I will paraphrase James Tiptree Jr. Awards list. These comments probably are copyrighted by the Tiptree Awards committee or their authors, and they certainly do not belong to me. Glory Season by David Brin was selected by the Tiptree committee for their long list in 1993, in 1993 the Tiptree award was given to Nicola Griffith for Ammonite. Urusula LeGuin's comments. First she questions why Brin when making Stratos, fell into the cliche of making a women dominated society Quote:"static, rigid, closed to change, closed to thought, and needing to be saved from itself."? Ms LeGuin questions, too, why this world is anti-technological? I know Brin's afterward addresses some of these questions. But one has to wonder why Brin used these seeming cliches?

This is turning into a very long post. Sorry. I have not read David Brin's afterward yet; however, while skimming it I noticed that one of his motivators for writing were the parthenogenic lizards of the Southwest United States, and since my academic background is primarily biology, and those lizards are a favorite topic of mine. (Cneidmadophoru neomexicanus) taraswizard
Allan Rosewarne N9SQT/WDX6HQV
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Plan C - http://planc.bravepages.com/main.htmlEdited by: taraswizard at: 8/2/03 1:44 pm




Duchess of Malfi
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Posted: 03 Aug 2003 20:39 Post subject: Re: Glory Season by David Brin and strong Sci-Fi females

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Ah, but many writers use some form of cliche or other in their work. To me what matters is how engaging the story is. And I found this one to be quite enjoyable...
I think it was Zahir who started a thread down in general fantasy about cliches in fantasy stories, and it made me think about how many writers do use them...but, on the other hand, even many who use them still manage to write engaging and interesting stories...and that is what the bottom line is to me as a reader -- can this writer gain and hold my interest? Can he or she make me think? Ponder something new? Care about the characters? (That is a matter of personal taste, of course, there are as many things that people enjoy or find distasteful in stories as there are people who read them...) Our lives are the songs that sing the universe into existence.~David Zindell
****Tavern Wench of DOGMA, the Defenders of George Martin's Art****




taraswizard
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Posted: 09 Aug 2003 17:54 Post subject: Re: Glory Season by David Brin and strong Sci-Fi females

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To further my comments, my comments do not reflect my enjoyment of the story, merely echoing and a little agreeing with what a well known writer and critic of the genre has said.

After I finished the book, I kept wondering what would happen next. Obviously, Leia and Brod were coming to rejoin Maia in Caria City, but would Maia find her destiny in piloting the new class of airships that were about to be released. Would their new duties on these airships, allow the men of Stratos to further fulfil their own destinies. Would perhaps Maia and Leia found a clan that would follow theYeown way, rather than that of the strict orthodox Stratos clan structure. Being raised and educated on Stratos's frontier had limited Maia's and Leia's view of their world to a frontier like-puritanism and orthodoxy. This is easily seen in Maia's conversations with Brod, he was born on Stratos's Landing Continent and his mother clan were librarians, and his view of his world, eventhough he is a man, is more inclusive and cosmopolitan than Maia's.

I know I have more to say, but kinda forgot what it was now. taraswizard
Allan Rosewarne N9SQT/WDX6HQV
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Plan C - http://planc.bravepages.com/main.htmlEdited by: taraswizard at: 8/9/03 3:56 pm





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Posted: 11 Aug 2003 09:26 Post subject: Re: Glory Season by David Brin and strong Sci-Fi females

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I rather liked the end, as it was not all wrapped up and sugar coated. It really made me wonder, as well, what was going to happen to all of the characters next...this whole book made me really do a lot of thinking... Our lives are the songs that sing the universe into existence.~David Zindell
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danlo60
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Posted: 11 Aug 2003 13:17 Post subject: Re: Glory Season by David Brin and strong Sci-Fi females

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I concur! And now Danlo looked in that direction, too. He remembered that snowy owls mate in the darkest part of deep winter, and so along with this beautiful white bird perched in a tree a hundred feet away, he turned to face the sea as he watched and waited.

Ahira, Ahira, he called out silently to the sky. Ahira, Ahira




Zahir al Daoud
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Posted: 25 Aug 2005 09:35 Post subject: Re: Glory Season by David Brin and strong Sci-Fi females

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For what it is worth, I also enjoy Glory Season very much. And would certainly classify it as science fiction, rather than fantasy, even though it is set in predominantly non-industrial society.

Complaints about the society in the book seem to me dovetailing with the notion that a female-dominated society would lack the flaws of male one. Me, I doubt that very very much. Brin's world was one that made plenty of sense, embodied the issues his novel sought to explore, and avoided what is to my mind the dramatic dead-end of a utopia. For that matter, I simply don't believe Brin has created anything that needs 'defending' per se. If he portrayed his world as an unending nightmare with the strong implication that what made it so terrible was an upsetting of the "natural" or "God-given" gender roles, that would be one thing. But that is certainly not what is portrayed. Instead he shows a society that has--for good and ill--chosen the path of stability rather than change, one that ill-suits his heroine (ah! CONFLICT!), and at a time when the beginning of real change are forcing their way in. Sounds like the basis for a good story to moi! And lookee here--it is one!



taraswizard
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Posted: 28 Aug 2005 12:19 Post subject: Re: Glory Season by David Brin and strong Sci-Fi females

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Glory Season 1993. This is a book I really enjoyed reading and I read it on the recommendation of Hangarites.

Zahir wrote Quote:If he portrayed his world as an unending nightmare with the strong implication that what made it so terrible was an upsetting of the "natural" or "God-given" gender roles, that would be one thing. But that is certainly not what is portrayed. Instead he shows a society that has--for good and ill--chosen the path of stability rather than change, one that ill-suits his heroine (ah! CONFLICT!), and at a time when the beginning of real change are forcing their way in. Sounds like the basis for a good story to moi! And lookee here--it is one! Brin did not specifically write a dystopic world because he wants to specifically mislead the reader about how unnatural this world is. The ambassador tells Leia specifically that there is NO WAY possible for Stratos to continue in its static and unchanging ways, and not just because the other human colonists are going to arrive. Another contraindicatorary element to the story is how the leaders of Stratos have purposefully and deliberately mislead all the inhabitants about all the specifics of their history, examples how long they've lived on Stratos, existance of the advanced technology at the defense bunker and what role men might have taken during the planetary defense of Stratos against The enemy. And it is a very good story.

Zahir wrote Quote:rather than fantasy, even though it is set in predominantly non-industrial society. FWIW, the Pern novels are set in a non-industrial setting, BUT they are SF.

More to follow. taraswizard
Allan Rosewarne N9SQT/WDX6HQV
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Plan C - http://planc.bravepages.com/main.htmlEdited by: taraswizard at: 8/28/05 10:24 am




taraswizard
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Posted: 05 Apr 2007 14:18 Post subject: David Brin and Glory season

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OK, IIRC there were messages after the one one sent that precedes this one and I'm presumming they all dissapeared in the Ezboard hack attack.

The ones following again IIRC, were David's criticism of the Tiptree award, which has been very vocal, and vigorous. In the 90s Brin wrote an essay, Why SF doesnot need any more Awards, and the essay's specific target was the Tiptree. His criticism was that the award is an overly niche focused award and he objected to the fragamentation of the field. To give some brief history, the award was created after a GoH speech by Pat Murphy at WisCon in 1991, during which she said to Karen Joy Fowler, who was sitting in the first row, 'Why isn't there an award for SF writing that explores the role of gender?' The first award was given in 1992. The award is juried award, there's no voting, a panel of five that almost always includes former winners or other known authorities.

Now moving forward to LAconIII in 1996, and during the convention, there's a discussion session regarding the relatively new award in the world of SF, the Tiptree. And during this session David Brin begins to harangue the discussion leaders about how the award is a disingenous and a fraud since his book, Glory Season, did not win the award, and he added it was not even considered for the award. During his harangue, I've been told, Brin further accuses the award to be controled by a group man-hating femnist (I don't know if he used the term evil feminist cabal or not), who will not allow men to be considered for the award. To be accurate in 1993, Glory Season was put onto the Tiptree award shortlist.
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