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 Post subject: Dune chapter 13 The Duke found Thufir Hawat alone in the
PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 6:26 am 
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Lady Scryer
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On that first day when Muad'Dib rode through the streets of Arrakeen with his family, some of the people along the way recalled the legends and the prophecy and they ventured to shout: "Mahdi!" But their shout was more a question than a statement, for as yet they could only hope he was the one foretold as the Lisan al-Gaib, the Voice from the Outer World. Their attention was focused, too, on the mother, because they had heard she was a Bene Gesserit and it was obvious to them that she was like the other Lisan al-Gaib.
~ from "Manual of Muad'Dib" by the Princess Irulan

This little quote at the beginning - who is the other Lisan al-Gaib? Who is the other Voice from the Outer World whom Jessica is like?

This is a short chapter, but it is important in showing the love Leto had for Jessica.

At the beginning of the chapter, Leto and Thufir Hawat had gone off by themselves after the conference, leaving Paul to rest.

Leto orders an Atreides raid on the Harkonnen homeworld, Giedi Prime, to destroy any Spice stockpiles. Leto thinks that the Emperor will not mind a bit of humiliation given to the Harkonnen.

Leto can tell that Hawat is troubled but tells him of the two reports of traitors anyway. In fact, Leto thinks that his telling of the reports of traitors will calm down Hawat, show Leto's confidence in him.

Instead, Leto's report only makes Hawat even more upset.

Hawat tells Leto of a scrap of a note taken from a Harkonnen courier and intended for the head Harkonnen spy on Arrakis. The note makes Hawat suspect that the Lady Jessica is the traitor.

Leto simply knows that it is not true, and that Jessica would never betray either himself or her son. He has great faith in her.

Nonetheless, Hawat is not convinced and asks to have Jessica watched. Leto goes along with this, and agrees to leave it in Hawat's hands.

Hawat gives Leto a report about the Fremen religion, and tells him that the Fremen think that Paul might be a match for one of their prophecies.

At the end, an enraged Leto watches the light of the sunrise on the cliffs, burning in a multitude of glowing colors. He sees the pools of the quick growing red wild flowers of Arrakis. For the first time he sees the awesome beauty of the place, and thinks that it might be a good home for his son. Then he sees people gathering the dew from the flowers, and thinks that it could also be a hideous place.


And now for some spoilers from the Dune houses books:

There are spoilers here! You are warned!! Spoilers!! Spoilers!!


















In the Dune Houses we learn that the Atreides have lamentable luck with their women. Leto's father was assassinated in a bizarre way by his mother. The Duchess had come from an enemy house.

Leto himself had had a concubine before he met Jessica. This concubine (a well born princess from an allied house) turned on him, and also tried to assassinate him - he obviously made it, but another Atreides family member was killed in the attempt.

Thufir Hawat was chief of Atreides security when both of these assassiantions happened.

Knowing that, who could blame him for being so willing to suspect Lady Jessica?
******************************************************

Our lives are the songs that sing the universe into existence.~David Zindell
<i>Edited by: Duchess of Malfi at: 10/6/06 11:29 pm
</i>


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 Post subject: Re:Chapter 13
PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 4:37 am 
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Ah, the infamous love chapter, this chapter here shows that dispite the hectic schedules of the Duke that he indeed has time left for his family. The communique intercepted leaves little doubt for Hawat that Jessica is a traitor in the family. Leto knows otherwise but allows Hawat to continue his report without outbursting against the report. Here Leto shows great control and great faith in his love for Jessica. Yes, the spoilers are very relevant, Duchess, again shedding light on why this false accusation is baseless in the Duke's eyes. Well done, this was a short chapter albeit an important one. It established Leto as a man who indeed loves as deep as he hates....... <i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: Dune chapter 13 The Duke found Thufir Hawat alone in the
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 8:22 am 
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Good posts folks. I certainly agree that calculating as they are, the Atreides are as fervent in love as in hate.

And a very interesting backstory there too. Which leads me to ask, although it is clear why Hawat suspected her so readily, I'm surprised that the Duke was so adamant in his support. So certain of her love. (And would he have been if he had known her ancestory?

--A ____________________________________

A sense of the sardonic preserves a man from believing in his own pretensions. -The Sayings Of Maud'Dib<i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: Dune chapter 13 The Duke found Thufir Hawat alone in the
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 5:19 pm 
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Jessica was there to help him pick up the pieces from his disastrous first relationship. Despite her bitterness over the marriage issue, she was always there for him. All she wanted was to be with him.

I am not sure if he still would have trusted her, had he known her parentage. The romantic in me says - yes! of course he would have still trusted her! but the realist says - perhaps not?

Back to the spoilers, both problems with his mother and with his first serious relationship were due to the women being from Great Houses. His mother came from an enemy house, and when push came to shove, she never forgot that, and she supported her house over her husband. Leto's first partner was also from a Great House, she had expectations of wealth and status and the social life at the capital world and in the Imperial Court - and this left her open to manipulation from Harkonnen agents.

Jessica was above all of that, coming from the Bene Gesserit and not knowing her parentage. She had no interest in partying at the capital or supporting her birth house (as she had none). All Jessica wanted was a peaceful life with Leto and their son.

Unlike most matings in the Great Houses, Jessica and Leto still shared a relationship and a bed after nearly two decades. I got the feeling that most of the political marriages eventually disintegrated in the face of boredom and harems. But she was there, had had thousands of nights to try to kill him if that was her goal, and had proven her loyalty to him over and over and over again. ******************************************************

Our lives are the songs that sing the universe into existence.~David Zindell
<i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: Dune chapter 13 The Duke found Thufir Hawat alone in the
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 5:31 am 
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Men are always fools for beautiful women.

Great post Duchess...I must get those prequels. Will check the place I picked up Chapter House.

And interesting side-line of this particular chapter is of course the fact that many of his trusted aides...all of them in fact, did suspect Jessica...often for many many years. Idaho, Halleck and Hawat...his top men...sometimes deception bites back I guess.

I think I agree that he wouldn't have trusted her...although...it might depend on when exactly he found out too.

--A ____________________________________

A sense of the sardonic preserves a man from believing in his own pretensions. -The Sayings Of Maud'Dib<i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: Dune chapter 13 The Duke found Thufir Hawat alone in the
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 5:40 am 
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You have to wonder how much of that suspician came because of Jessica herself and any actions she did or things she had said?

Or because of the actions of the last Duchess and the first concubine?

Or possible prejudice against "Bene Gesserit witches"? ******************************************************

Our lives are the songs that sing the universe into existence.~David Zindell
<i>Edited by: Duchess of Malfi at: 10/9/06 10:54 pm
</i>


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 Post subject: Re: Dune chapter 13 The Duke found Thufir Hawat alone in the
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:02 am 
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Certainly the actions of the last Duchess and concubine were part of it. And the natural prejudices as well.

I'm not sure if her actions had anything to do with it...At least, I don't think we know of her doing anything suspicious.

I think partly it was a need for a scapegoat as well.

--A ____________________________________

A sense of the sardonic preserves a man from believing in his own pretensions. -The Sayings Of Maud'Dib<i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: Dune chapter 13 The Duke found Thufir Hawat alone in the
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:30 am 
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With the huge exception of allowing the Bene Gesserit to test Paul with the gom jabbar (and I do not think any of the Atreides retainers even know about that), I am aware of nothing Jessica did to bring any suspician upon herself.
******************************************************

Our lives are the songs that sing the universe into existence.~David Zindell
<i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: Dune chapter 13 The Duke found Thufir Hawat alone in the
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:32 am 
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The spoilers don't matter to me much, since I doubt I'll ever pick up any of the prequel books.

As duchess said, Jessica had already proven her loyalty to Leto over and over. But for hardliners like Hawat, that would never be enough. Leto was wrong to go along with Hawat and not tell Jessica. Wow, Leto, such trust you have in her. As for Hawat, what a sad pawn he is in the Harkonnens' game. <i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: Dune chapter 13 The Duke found Thufir Hawat alone in the
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 4:34 am 
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Was he so wrong? I suppose from the point of view of a loving relationship he was. But then, he thought he was doing it for all their safety, and that as a result, he would have plenty of time to demonstrate his feelings for her.

It seems that "being cruel to be kind" is a veritable hallmark of the Atreides.

As for Hawat...yes, I suppose his weaknesses were played on. As Paul pointed out, he was an old man who'd served 3 generations of Atreides.

I used to think of him as a remarkable figure, (being largely impressed with the idea of mentats in general), but the more I read the book, the...well...sadder he became.

--A ____________________________________

A sense of the sardonic preserves a man from believing in his own pretensions. -The Sayings Of Maud'Dib<i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: Dune chapter 13 The Duke found Thufir Hawat alone in the
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 2:21 am 
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The thing about Hawat is that, so far in my re-read of Dune I'm finding him to be not very likeable. Not that he was meant to be warm and fuzzy. But what am I saying? Sheesh, there aren't a whole lotta likeable people in Herbert's universe. So far in the story, Paul and Jessica are the only two people I genuinely warm to, and I'm sure that's deliberate on Herbert's part. Their mother-son relationship is the emotional center of the story (it would seem to me). Lose that and you lose the reader, or at least this reader.

<i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: Dune chapter 13 The Duke found Thufir Hawat alone in the
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 4:18 am 
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I know what you mean, but I gotta say that "likeable" is such a malleable term... I've never gone in for it much.

That said, I don't think either of them are particularly likeable anyway. As we've seen and will continue to see, they're both capable of great unpleasantness. And, (probably the nobility showing), they are often cold and pre-emptory with their loyalest of...retainers/servants.

I don't really find an Atreides I like until 3,500 years later, until Moneo in God Emperor.

--A ____________________________________

A sense of the sardonic preserves a man from believing in his own pretensions. -The Sayings Of Maud'Dib<i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: Dune chapter 13 The Duke found Thufir Hawat alone in the
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 5:33 pm 
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But at least you can see the simple humanity in the relationship between a mother and her only child; between pairings such as Leto & Jessica and Paul & Chaini, and even between Alia & Duncun II. And not to mention the deep emotional bond between the twins. Sure, those couplings and relationships are far from perfect - but at least we can see emotions that we can understand in them from time to time.

You do not really see any "normal" emotions from any of the Harkonnen, or the Emperor. That is a big part of why they seem so monstrous in comparison. ******************************************************

Our lives are the songs that sing the universe into existence.~David Zindell
<i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: Dune chapter 13 The Duke found Thufir Hawat alone in the
PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 4:37 am 
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Deliberately of course.

But yes, especially between Paul and Chani and Leto II and Ghanima especially. They are all intrinsically human. And underwent the test of reason to prove it.

And there are certainly times when you see it between Paul and Jessica, now and later.

But then, I'm sure many psychopaths love their mothers and vice versa.

--A ____________________________________

A sense of the sardonic preserves a man from believing in his own pretensions. -The Sayings Of Maud'Dib<i></i>


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