Ahira's Hangar

David Zindell's Neverness, A Requiem for Homo Sapiens and all things Science Fiction and Fantasy
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 Post subject: Chapter 12........for the fifth time......
PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 7:11 am 
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Over the exit of the Arakeen landing field,crudely carved,as though with a poor instrument,there was an inscription that Muad'Dib was to repeat many times.He saw it that first night on Araakis,having been brought to the ducal command post to participate in his father's first full staff conference.The words of the inscription were a plea to those leaving Arrakis,but they fell with dark import on the eyes of a boy who had just escaped a close brush with death.They said:"O you who know what we suffer here,do not forget us in your prayers."

The Duke seeks to further Paul's education in royal politics, explaining that when your own family gets involved with the calculated risk of warfare that it gets ensared in other things.Meaning that personal feelings may get the better of you.Leto further shows Paul that the burdens of command are indeed great,that the stress of leadership MUST only be shared with those that are closest to you.Hawat's mistake of overlooking the hunter-seeker is defended by Paul,staing that he would not have survived unless he had recieved training from Hawat himself.
Hawat enters the room and wishes to remove himself from the Duke's employ and the Duke at this point is very angry at the display of foolishness from Hawat.Further showing Paul that ALL personnel must be salvaged if they have proven their worth.
Leto further tells Hawat:"Oh,sit down and stop acting the fool,the Duke said.He waved to the chair across from Paul."If you made a mistake it was in overestimating the Harkonnens.Their simple minds came up with a simple trick.We didn't count on simple tricks.And my son has been at great pains to point out to me that he came through this largely because of your training,You didn't fail there!"He tapped the back of the empty chair."Sit down I say!"
Hawat sank into the chair "But--"
"I'll hear no more of it,the Duke said."The incident is past.We have more pressing business.Where are the others?"
"I asked them to wair outside while I--"
"Call them in."
Hawat looked into Leto's eyes,"Sire,I--"
"I know who my true friends are,Thufir,"the Duke said."Call in the men."
Hawat swallowed."At once my Lord."
This exchange alone showed Paul that even though somebody may have failed in a task set to them,that any man was not beyond redemption,this later shows up in a later chapter when the Fremen wish Muad'Dib to call out Stilgar.However,that will not be discussed here.

The Duke surveys the men that walk into his command post briefing room and decides to himself that they are all good men,equal to the task that is about to be appointed to them.The Duke seemingly appraises the whole situation from a single galnce around the room.Leto switches from forgiving Lord to the Duke Leto Ateides with seeming ease.
"Well,gentlemen,"he said, "our civilization appears to've fallen so deeply into the habit of invasion that we cannot even obey a simple order of the Imperium without the old ways cropping up."Paul realized that his father had said exactly the right thing at the right time to ease the mood.Further showing Paul that command must appear easy,that the right tact at the right time,knowing your subordinates' moods and disposition at all times is crucial to maintaining command no matter what situation may arise.

The Fremen are discussed into detail, as to recruiting them as a fighting force for the duke,population numbers are much larger than expected and that the Fremen are waiting to see if the new duke can be trusted.Intelligence reports are given to see if the new leadership will use the proper force where it is required,the Fremen further supply reliable intelligence.A possible local deity is brought up in the discussion,Liet.

It is open knowledge that the Fremen deal with the smugglers,loaded down with enough supplies for an eighteen day journey in Arrakis's desert,and with a heavy load of spice.Leto further states to the men gathered that smugglers will always operate outside of fief control.Leto is concerned about making a logistical mistake here by stating:"This deserves some careful thought." He knows that these operations will always take place but they will be ignored if they give hime a Ducal tithe.CHOAM profits are jealuosly gaurded by the Emporer,and Leto furhter states:"We'll bank the entire amount openly in the name of Shaddam IV and deduct it legally from our levy support costs.Let the Harkonnens fight that!And we'll be ruining a few more of locals who grew fat under the Harkonnen system.No more graft!"Halleck instantly approves this new plan to further undermine the Harkonnen system,calling it" A beautiful low blow."
Surface equipment becomes a problem as well, as profits from the spice.Many machines left from the Harkonnens is in bad repair and the ones that do work are antiques.The Guild situation of the wont of weather satelites is brought into play,and most are crestfallen to discover that it's well beyond the reach of even Ducal coffers.
One of the men state that there's no justice in the current situation with the Guild,the Judge of the Change,the costs estimate and outbursts in the discussion.Rather than retaliate to the man in question,Leto tells him that Justice is for those who reach forth and take it,that it will not come to those who sit idly by and wait for it to seek them out.Leto states as well that ANY man may speak out here at this table.Leto wants the truth without his men worrying over reprimands for speaking the truth.

Paul holds himself in check during these discussions,soaking in how both his father and the men respond to the current threat,and bringsup the problems of the Worms.At this the duke cringes and decides that the men MUST face the truth of what they are up against.The de-emphsis on shields concerns the duke but does not speak out on this subject.He only quails at the thought of being unable to escape from Arrakis if all else fails.

Duncan Idaho finally arrives to the discussions to reveals that the Fremen have once again provided help by uncovering a band of Harkonnen agents bent on mischief,then reveals that one of the Fremen has fallen to defend the duke in his ventures,and further reveals that a Chysknife has fallen to him in the process.Stilgar apparently is very angry that the knife was to be revealed to those who had not gone through a cleansing process.The duke is afraid that the new fledgling alliance with the Fremen may hang in the balance of properly handling the current situation at hand,and states to Stilgar that the Duke will respect that which respects him.And that if there is any way to honor the man who died in his service Stilgar has to but name it.At this, Stilgar spits upon the table in front of the duke,in most cultures to be taken as a sign of disrespect,but with the Fremen it is a Water-Bond with those who understand the ways of the deep desert.At this Idaho understands what is taking place and requires all to hold their ground without taking offense to the bond.
Idaho is required to form a double allegiance with both Duke Leto and the Fremen,leaving the body of the fallen Fremen behind stating:" Duncan Idaho,your water is our water,Turok's water is to stay with your Duke." Further sealing the water-bond between Leto and the Fremen.

Leto further commands that another command post be set up and all information to be gathered at the new location.Paul realizes that his father is desperate,that his command is somewhat clouded by this fact and that the whole discussion ended in confusion.Leto furhter tells Paul after the men left to rest in the new command post and Paul further realizes his father is acting like a caged animal......and remembers what the Bene Gesserit had promised him,"For the father NOTHING."

I know I glossed over a many key elements here,this chapter is VERY complex and would require many pages to properly dissect it.NO, I DID NOT DO THIS ONE FROM MEMORY!! This chapter required many references to complete, and of course the simple fact of doing the &%$#^^^&^%$# thing five times to post was,to say the least,frustrating.This chapter would require by far more space to dissect than it took to write,There are many problems that have arised from running things PROPERLY.Most of the Duke's adamant refusal to things the "Harkonnen way.",did complicate many issues and Paul began to see that his father was indeed tired,concerned,and cornered.In my own personal opinion Muad'Dib learned more on HOW to govern from this staff meeting than anything else in his education.The many things his father taught him the most important was on how to be a true man,to uphold his word and to honor those who have sacrificed all for the Atriedes way of life.As shall be revealed in later chapters however,Muad'Dib could not always adhere to what he had learned from his father.Driven by revenge,loss,love,and a new culture that Muad'Dib himself had formed,the ways learned from his father was not always practical or the best.Muad'Dib had an EMPIRE to run,not a Ducal fief.As we will see in later chapters many things his father taught him did stay with him but were only the starting grounds,not the final product.As Avatar had once said,"The Atreides were NOT nice" in getting their idealogical theories across.So, here we see the beginning of Muad'Dib's earliest training to be a true Royal............................The spice must flow........Spacemonkey

<i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: Chapter 12........for the fifth time......
PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 5:25 pm 
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I was horrified when I got your PM about all of the problems you have been having trying to post this! (For some reason he would get it all typed in and then cyberspace would eat the whole thing.)

The names or persons of some important characters are introduced here: Liet and Stilgar. The Fremen will be very important to the story very soon!

What haunts me from this chapter is how, by the end, Paul realizes that perhaps the Bene Gesserit from earlier in the book might have been right about the loss of his father. ...and for the father, nothing...

Paul thinks that his father paces the room like a caged animal. And when the Duke leaves the room, Paul thinks that the space had been empty even beore his father left it.

While Paul seems calm, I cannot imagine that the realization that he might soon lose his father, and that his family is probably in huge trouble, could not have affected him on some emotional level or another. ******************************************************

Our lives are the songs that sing the universe into existence.~David Zindell
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 Post subject: Re: Chapter 12........for the fifth time......
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:32 am 
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Sorry to hear about your posting problems. I find it best to type posts this long in notepad, save them, then copy and paste into the forum. That way, if anything goes wrong, you just paste again.

I've always loved the introduction to this chapter...the inscription carved into the lintel of the door. (Although I've always thought it would read better as "...Forget us not in your prayers.")

An interesting chapter this. Leto through the eyes of his son. And a rare glimpse at Thfir Hawat, the Mentat Master of Assassins. (I've always been intrigued by the fact that this is an open position. Assassination is merely one of the many accepted strategems in the political arena. No shame or guilt about it, the Houses openly employ Masters of Assassins.)

And an interesting analysis about Leto's demonstration of the fact that no man is beyond redemption, although I think that Paul already knows this, and perhaps even suggested it to his father by defending Hawat.

Certainly however, there is a marked contrast between this and the Harkonnen way where failure equals death.

Here also we find extensive discussion of the Fremen, and, IIRC, Leto makes his point about Desert Power.

This seems to be a relatively straightforward military information session...but there are hints of the mens weariness. There is, underlying everything, the sense that things are not going all that well for the Atreides.

Leto however demonstrates his Atreides skill at leadership, bringing new heart to his men. And also, importantly, this is where we learn that the Harkonnen were taking vast sums of money...several billion solaris...out of Arrakis every 330 standard days.

The gravity...and profit potential...are immediately clear.

Also, as Duchess pointed out, here we learn about Liet. Already known to the Atreides, although they don't know it, Liet's dual allegience (his dual nature) are markers of the strong sense of spirituality common in oppressed people in harsh conditions.

Enter Stilgar. The quintessential Fremen Naib. Strong, sure, he impresses the Duke immediately, only reinforcing his determination to gain the Fremen as allies, and to this end, orders Idaho to remain with him in another version of Liets double alligience.

I don't think I agree that this is the beginning of his training, but I do think that this was an important, perhaps vital lesson. In fact, this might well be nearly the culmination of all lessons.

--A

____________________________________

A sense of the sardonic preserves a man from believing in his own pretensions. -The Sayings Of Maud'Dib<i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: Chapter 12........for the fifth time......
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 6:35 pm 
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An openly employed Master of Assassins...as usual, I am glad I do not live in the Dune universe!

Spacemonkey, you did a great job with this complex and important chapter, despite the problems you had posting it!

******************************************************

Our lives are the songs that sing the universe into existence.~David Zindell
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 Post subject: Re: Chapter 12........for the fifth time......
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:17 am 
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Thanx for the kind words,all.......this was not my best work and by the time I could post the bleeding thing I was to say the least BEYOND annoyed.I will Av's advice and use the notepad then post it.As some(or ALL) can tell I'm still a bit of a noob to the whole thing,I'll figure it out.What's reallt funny about this chapter was that when i finished Chap 11 I looked at 12 and thought to myself,"Dear god,this chapter's bloody nightmare!!" WELL,HA!....HA!HA!.......HA!HA!HA!.Geesh,went and cursed myself with it.Ah,well,there's still tons of the book to go..........who's next? <i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: Chapter 12........for the fifth time......
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:46 am 
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Quote:An openly employed Master of Assassins...as usual, I am glad I do not live in the Dune universe!

I dunno...I wouldn't mind, but I would like to be a member of one of the noble houses, not some lowly drudge.

I imagine it would be quite the challenge.

Uh, Duchess, would you mind doing 13 when you have a chance? No rush. And then I'll do 14 & 15?


--A ____________________________________

A sense of the sardonic preserves a man from believing in his own pretensions. -The Sayings Of Maud'Dib<i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: Chapter 12........for the fifth time......
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:49 am 
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A few comments:

Doesn't it seem like Paul is more patient and reasonable than his father here? Who is learning from whom? Paul has matured indeed. In this meeting with Leto's men, Paul also demonstrates again his ability to observe acutely the people and environment around him, an awareness of surroundings that sharpens at every turn -- surely the potent result of his Bene Gesserit training combined with his nascent Mentat analytical skill. What a formidable Duke he would've been all right.

Leto says if there was a mistake made, it was in overestimating the Harkonnens. But Leto's dismissal of the "simple minds" and "simple tricks" of the Harkonnens is his mistake. Poor Leto doesn't know, of course, but we're already privy to the knowledge that Dr. Yueh is the Harkonnens' secret weapon within House Atreides. Leto is being played for the fool by the Harkonnens, ensnared in the Baron's "plans within plans." So much for simple tricks by simple minds.

Again, because Herbert revealed so early that Yueh will be the "betrayer" of Atreides, that ominous fact colours much of what goes on. Thus, for me, this whole conference with Leto and his men has the air of a futile exercise. All this brave and ambitious talk by Leto about sticking it to the Harkonnens and the Emperor seems hollow, because we're aware that calamity is coming to House Atreides, and there's nothing they can do about it in their ignorant (perhaps even arrogant) state.

I really liked Paul's observation on Thufir Hawat:

Quote:Paul looked at his father, back to Hawat, suddenly conscious of the Mentat's great age, aware that the old man had served three generations of Atreides. Aged. It showed in the rheumy shine of the brown eyes, in the cheeks cracked and burned by exotic weathers, in the rounded curve of the shoulders and the thin set of his lips with the cranberry-coloured stain of sapho juice.

So much depends on one aged man, Paul thought.

In that sympathetic but also pitiable picture, Hawat comes across as a tired old man held upright only by his sheer devotion to the Atreides and the prestige of his Mentat status. Paul's thought that so much depends on one aged man hints at trouble ahead for Hawat and House Atreides's tenure on Arrakis.

Perhaps in another sense Hawat, in his advanced age, represents a certain rigid or even ossified perspective of the world, stuck in old assumptions or prejudices. (We shall see later on how Hawat's personal bias against the Bene Gesserit "witches" causes him to form a terribly skewed and unjust view of Jessica.)










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 Post subject: Re: Chapter 12........for the fifth time......
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:54 am 
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I will try to get 13 up this weekend, but will probably be out of town for at least a couple of days the week after that (sometime around the 15'th) so if you or someone else could do the one after that, it would be good.

I just hope the next chapter is not as packed with information as this one was! ******************************************************

Our lives are the songs that sing the universe into existence.~David Zindell
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 Post subject: Re: Chapter 12........for the fifth time......
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 5:10 am 
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That'll be great. Like I said though, no rush at all...if you don't get a chance, don't worry about it.

And I'll definitely do the next one or two.

And maybe MoonWatcher would like to do one?

--A ____________________________________

A sense of the sardonic preserves a man from believing in his own pretensions. -The Sayings Of Maud'Dib<i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: Chapter 12........for the fifth time......
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 5:20 am 
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I'd rather suffer the gom jabbar. (Kidding!)

Yeah, I can do a chapter at some point. <i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: Chapter 12........for the fifth time......
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 5:23 am 
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Moonwatcher - very good point about Yueh, the Harkonnen, and the Atreides.

Here are the Atreides, nearly killing themselves with exhaustion trying to ensure their safety, and they do not have a single clue about where the real danger to them lies... ******************************************************

Our lives are the songs that sing the universe into existence.~David Zindell
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 Post subject: Re: Chapter 12........for the fifth time......
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 5:32 am 
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Damn, I missed your post MW. A very good point indeed. And of course, I fully agree with the suggestion that it is Paul teaching something to his father, who's anger clearly has a grip on him.

And I completely forgot about the fact that the ploy with the hunter-seeker was never actually meant to succeed. It was, as you point out, merely a feint...

...Yes...Leto underestimates the Harkonnen indeed.

--A ____________________________________

A sense of the sardonic preserves a man from believing in his own pretensions. -The Sayings Of Maud'Dib<i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: Chapter 12........for the fifth time......
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:17 am 
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I don't really think that Leto under estimated the Harkonnens,more like along the lines that Leto has lived with danger for so long he could no longer accurately gauge the intensity of what he faced.Since Leto's ascension to the Ducal title he has faced more than his share of intrigue,so his anger could have directed at himself for not being able to see what was coming.Leto has faced down greater perils than these,certainly.But these perils involved only himself,this chapter Leto understood that his family would be involved at this point,and as Leto said:"The whole theory of warfare is calculated risk,"the Duke said,"but when it comes to risking your own family,the element of calculation gets submerged in.......other things." I'm wondering if the Duke had problems with this type of new threat.Before it's always involved only himself,now the family gets involved and it may have been enough to throw off his balance............. <i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: Chapter 12........for the fifth time......
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 4:41 am 
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Hmmm...perhaps so...although it seems strange that his family is suddenly only involved now, since Paul is already 15. Perhaps it's because Caladan was so much safer.

But no longer accurately guaging the intensity of the efforts against him is the same as underestimating them I think.

--A ____________________________________

A sense of the sardonic preserves a man from believing in his own pretensions. -The Sayings Of Maud'Dib<i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: Chapter 12........for the fifth time......
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:48 pm 
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Yes, if Leto has lost his "edge" in measuring the dangers against him (and his family), then I'd say that amounts to the same thing as underestimating the enemy. <i></i>


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