Ahira's Hangar

This may have been discussed before my time.....What if the BG HAD gotten a hold of Paul Atreides and the BG had their Kwisatz Haderach? What does everyone think the BG would have been able to accomplish in the Empire? <i></i>

If it has been, I certainly haven't seen it.

I can't say it's something I've ever thought about to be honest.

We know that the BG wanted him, but why?

--A ____________________________________

A sense of the sardonic preserves a man from believing in his own pretensions. -The Sayings Of Maud'Dib<i></i>

That has always been a huge question in my mind.

What did they want him for?

How did they think they could have controlled him?

They knew Jessica's daughter was supposed to the mother of the kwisatch haderach...would they have taken the daughter from Jessica to train her as a Bene Gesserit? Do they think that Leto, with his fierce protectiveness of those he loves, would have allowed that?

If they knew that Jessica's daughter was to be the mother of him...why did they pay so little attention to Jessica's son? After all, the time of all of their prophecies was getting very close, and you think they would have kept a very close eye on all of Jessica's children in case the prophecy and bloodline predictions were a bit off.

And why did they not encourage her to have many daughters with Leto, to improve the odds that one of them would
a. survive to adulthood in a very dangerous galaxy
b. be acceptable as a Harkonnen bride
c. be fertile
d. be trainable as a gifted Bene Gesserit?

And another question - was Paul's son rather than Paul the long awaited figure of prophecy?

Maybe Paul was close enough to see those places closed to women, but Leto II was the true awaited one? ******************************************************

Our lives are the songs that sing the universe into existence.~David Zindell
<i></i>

If you recall,when Muad'Dib was contemplating the available paths and saw the infinite futures before him he told Jessica,"No,not THAT path.THAT"S what you BG really want."

Muad'Dib never explained just what they wanted,just that he wasn't taking that path.

jessica was ordered to bear a daughter.
"So,I had a son!"Jessica flared.
BG RM Gaius Helen Mohiam: "You were told to bear only daughters to the Atreides."
"It meant so much to him"Jessica pleaded
"And in your pride thought you could produce the Kwisatz Haderach!"
Jessica lifted her chin,"I sensed the possibility."
"You thought only of your Duke's desire for a son,"the old woman snapped."And his desires ddon't figure in this.An Atreides daughter could've been wed to a Harkonnen heir and sealed the breach.You've hopelessly complicated matters.We may lose both bloodlines now."

Hope this answered your questions Duchess,or have I confused you again?? <i></i>

I think what actually confused me the most was reading the Dune houses series.

In those three books the Bene Gesserit knew that the time had nearly come; were extremely protective of Jessica when she was pregnant because they knew how important her child could/would be and tensions were flaring between the Atreides and other factions...

...and yet, doesn't it seem that in time since House Corrino and Dune that they nearly ignored Jessica and her son?

Doesn't it seem that they would have at least constantly pressured Jessica to have that highly desired girl? Just because she disobeyed and had that boy (and you really cannot understand why a boy was so important to Leto until you read those books) doesn't mean that she cannot have half a dozen girls afterwards.
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Our lives are the songs that sing the universe into existence.~David Zindell
<i></i>

A HA! There you go! now there's some critical thinking,even if the BG had ordered girls by the basketful,the one would have been overlooked for the sake of diplomacy if nothing else.Jessica by this time wielded great power and she rarely if ever used it...But she (generally speaking) should have borne daughters after Paul,sealed the breach and the story very well could have ended there,but she never did and thus and therefore we have the story that we have............. <i></i>

Hmmmm....Could be that Jessica, having had the boy, they now needed to reassess their plans. The BG are long-term thinkers. Decisions are not taken lightly. And it could be that the H plot interfered seriously...the amount of time between the Atreides being ordered to Arrakis, and H victory there, was not very long.

--A ____________________________________

A sense of the sardonic preserves a man from believing in his own pretensions. -The Sayings Of Maud'Dib<i></i>

I have been thinking about this for the last couple of days and here are my latest thoughts:

Jessica refused to have a second child.

The Bene Gesserit had taken her away from Caladan and Leto when she was pregnant with Paul, to protect her and the daughter (or so they thought) she carried.

Because of that, Jessica now knows how important that girl is.

Jessica knows that as soon as the girl is brought into being, she might be taken away from Leto again, since that already happened once.

Therefore, she does not conceive a second child until she feels that Leto might well be lost to her anyway.


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Our lives are the songs that sing the universe into existence.~David Zindell
<i></i>

Could also be that the BG didn't bother asking for daughters because they knew they couldn't trust Jessica in these matters. If, out of love, she would dare to have a boy when ordered to have a girl, would she likely give up a daughter to the BG? I doubt it. Probably raise her herself. So after Paul was born, they only asked her to do things they thought she would do.

spacemonkey's initial question is a good one. What on earth did they have planned? What did they hope to gain from having him look into the place they could not? Merely a better understanding of things? Which may not be so "mere" after all. A fuller understanding of humanity would probably be a HUGE thing to the BG.

Maybe they expected the KH to be able to do more than look where they couldn't. As it turned out, he could. Because of his other mental and physical capabilities, and his charisma, he changed a civilization of thousands of planets. Maybe they assumed or knew that the KH would be capable of much. Obviously, they'd want him doing what they want.
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Highdrake's mastery of spells and sorcery was not much greater than his pupil's, but he had clear in his mind the idea of something very much greater, the wholeness of knowledge. And that made him a mage.<i></i>

Highdrake, does that Dune Encyclopedia of yours shed any light on what the BG actually wanted the KH to do? ******************************************************

Our lives are the songs that sing the universe into existence.~David Zindell
<i></i>

I hope I remember to check when I get home later tonight... ____________
Highdrake's mastery of spells and sorcery was not much greater than his pupil's, but he had clear in his mind the idea of something very much greater, the wholeness of knowledge. And that made him a mage.<i></i>

Hey, that's cool! I didn't know dune had an encyclopedia....I've got one for Star Trek and Star Wars.......buncha stuff in those you've never even heard of..... <i></i>

Haha, check the Dune thread over at the Watch for the story of Fist's Encyclopaedia.

Yeah, a very intriguing question. We can safely assume (I think) that the BG wanted him to mould the world in some way for them, as he instead did for himself.

But what would they want? Prescience without the spice? A way to get around the Guild? Control of the Ix / Tleilax machines?

--A ____________________________________

A sense of the sardonic preserves a man from believing in his own pretensions. -The Sayings Of Maud'Dib<i></i>

Would you believe...?!? There isn't an entry for Kwisatz Haderach in the encyclopedia?!?!!!?? I skimmed through Bene Gesserit and Atreides, Paul, and didn't see much discussion either. I'll give those two a closer look. But still! What the heck?????

The glossary in the back of Dune says:Quote:"Shortening of the Way." This is the label applied by the Bene Gesserit to the unknown for which they sought a genetic solution: a male Bene Gesserit whose organic mental powers would bridge space and time. ____________
Highdrake's mastery of spells and sorcery was not much greater than his pupil's, but he had clear in his mind the idea of something very much greater, the wholeness of knowledge. And that made him a mage.<i></i>

Oh, now that's nuts....Nothing on KH? shortening of the way we all know,but which Way will be shortened? <i>Edited by: spacemonkey at: 9/19/06 8:44 pm
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