Ahira's Hangar

Something that was said in one of the other threads got me thinking about this again, but I was too lazy to find it and edit my reply in.

Is there any religion in the Imperial universe? We know that individual (backwards?) planets have religion, and we know that the BG manipulate religions for their own advantage, but do, say, the great houses subscribe to any religion? I don't think that belief in a god of some sort was ever made evident by any of the Atreides or their retainers, or any of the Harkonnen, the Imperial family, or the Sardukar.

Not until Leto II became the God Emperor did religion of any sort feature in the "bigger picture" part of the story.

Thoughts? Comments? Corrections?

--A ____________________________________

A sense of the sardonic preserves a man from believing in his own pretensions. -The Sayings Of Maud'Dib<i></i>

Well there is the Orange Catholic Bible.... ******************************************************

Our lives are the songs that sing the universe into existence.~David Zindell
<i></i>

Yes there is. But it doesn't seem to occupy any place of particular importance.

And we know that the principles of Zen and Islam exist. But Religion for the people is a common thing where there is no religion for the rulers.

--A ____________________________________

A sense of the sardonic preserves a man from believing in his own pretensions. -The Sayings Of Maud'Dib<i></i>

Well, there is that whole prohibition against thinking machines...that sort of permeates galactic culture as a whole. ******************************************************

Our lives are the songs that sing the universe into existence.~David Zindell
<i></i>

True. I wonder if it's a religious injunction or a political one? What, 10,000 years after the Butlerian Jihad?

Perhaps it's so fundamental that it's never mentioned. I just never got the sense that they believed in any kind of god. Perhaps its the cavalier way that the BG manipulate primitive religions that give me the impression.

And of course, the focus on human abilities.

--A ____________________________________

A sense of the sardonic preserves a man from believing in his own pretensions. -The Sayings Of Maud'Dib<i></i>

I'm still early in my re-read of Dune (as you know, heh), but Herbert doesn't appear to outright say that anyone worships "God." The Fremen worship the spiceworms. Shai Hulud - the "Maker" right? But the Imperial Houses don't seem to bow to any specific deity.

On the other hand, it's made plain in David Lynch's film adaptation (yes, I know you're hissing) that House Atreides, at least, still follows "God" in some way. In a brief scene between Duncan and Paul, Duncan formally bids goodbye by saying: "May the hand of God be with you." Paul replies: "May the hand of God be with us all, Duncan."

Yeah, yeah, you're all crying blasphemy, but I thought that was a good little scene. God is referred to several other times in the movie, too. I don't reject the movie as many Dune fans do. I consider it a valid, alternative interpretation of the story, but never mind...

The Orange Catholic Bible has always been a bit of a mystery to me. Why "Orange?" I don't even know or recall the reason for the use of that word. I should try to get my hands on a copy of the Dune Encyclopedia that some of you talked about in other threads. That might have a lot of background info on the matter.

It's a little depressing to see that thousands of years into humanity's future, the concept of a holy war is still alive - the jihad. Human beings seem to show the most rabid enthusiasm when fighting and killing the heck out of each other. Well, to be fair, the Butlerian Jihad was fought to free humankind from the machines, right?

Religion is kind of a fuzzy thing in Dune, I guess. Similar to how Donaldson treats it in the Land. There are no zealous, Bible-thumping types around, just a general reverence for life and spirituality.

<i></i>

I suppose it is also possible that the "cultured" upper classes,with whom we spend a lot of our time, do not feel a strong need for religion (when you rule entire worlds, you perhaps do not feel a need to worship a god or gods). We do not really see many peasant sorts.

I would think that religion (or at least prayer) might be quite popular among the Harkonnen slaves, for example. ******************************************************

Our lives are the songs that sing the universe into existence.~David Zindell
<i></i>

I've always assumed that the "Orange" part of it was a reference to protestantism. It's traditionally been the colour of the Dutch, who formed a protestant equivalent to the Catholic empires of the time like Spain and Portugal.

Protestants in N Ireland are known as "Orangemen." (In Scotland too, IIRC.)

So I guessed it was like an amlagamation of the two main sects of Christianity.

(Movie? Boo! Hissss!)

I agree with Duchess about the irreligious nature of the upper classes. Another fairly established historical trend.

And yet despite the fuzziness of "modern" religion in Dune, it's nonetheless an over-riding theme in terms of the BG Missionaria Protectiva etc. I assume that when you're manipulating religions, it doesn't leave much room to be a believer in yourself.

--A ____________________________________

A sense of the sardonic preserves a man from believing in his own pretensions. -The Sayings Of Maud'Dib<i></i>

Ok,this one isn't too hard,the Orange Catholic bible was a convergence of ALL known faiths.Mohamed,Christ,Jew,and many(by this time) splinter sects.But as you recall even this effort was catostrophically a failure.The Orange Catholic bible was(basically)Man's final attempt to unite under religion within the Universe.Since it was so much the failure,no one really attempted to repeat the effort.After many centuries it became the accepted standard for any spiritual guidance of the time.The Butlerian Jihad had ramifications so far reaching that the edicts issued after humanity won the war against the thinking machines were more of Landsraad ultimatums.No house had(that I can clearly recall) any affiliation with any deity.The coming of the Mahdi for the Fremen was considered more of a splinter sect that had no real(at the time)ramifications to any house,least of all House Harkonnen.
Well,that's my two cents worth........ <i></i>

Yeah, I think you're right. Certainly the BG, and the Harkonnen, (and even the Atreides) seem to treat the religious the same way as they do the lower classes. With contempt.

Indeed, the religious and the lower classes seem to be the same thing in the Dune Universe.

It was almost beneath the notice of the rich and powerful until Paul Atreides dragged it into prominence.

But all he did was use the belief of the poor. I'm coming to the conclusion, (as I shall argue in the chapter dissections), that the Atreides are not very nice people on the whole.

--A ____________________________________

A sense of the sardonic preserves a man from believing in his own pretensions. -The Sayings Of Maud'Dib<i></i>

Even without the dissection I can Easily tell you the Atreides were not nice people on the whole.Lavish in their affection for those they loved and outright brutal against their enemies.That's one of the things about political power,destroy your enemies and help your friends.Remember when Paul said that there would be stations for EVERY Atreides man down to the lowliest trooper,after he had taken Arrakis back from Shaddam and House Harkonnen.But to rule a vast empire a such,you must be brutal in many areas to have object lessons that will always stand in every House's mind.Also,(sorry to ramble)before the major battle started EVERY House AND the Spacing Guild stood above Arrakis like vultures waiting for the killing blow to swoop in and grab what they could.House Atreides was entirely alone without a single ally.On that note I would be brutal as well......... <i></i>

Agreed...the Atreides were a political entity, a fact that is important to remember.

Lavish in their affection to allies, brutal in their treatment of enemies, and completely indifferent to everybody else.

--A ____________________________________

A sense of the sardonic preserves a man from believing in his own pretensions. -The Sayings Of Maud'Dib<i></i>

But could you imagine to be a political entity like that and last for 10000 years or better?That beats the Roman,Egyptian,and the Greek empires....How's that for political stability? <i></i>

I see what you're saying, spacemonkey -- it is an impressively long time. But after all, in fiction you can make any kind of vast empire last any length of time. So...I'm not sure what is proven by comparing the longevity of imaginary empires with that of real empires. I mean, the Egyptian, Greek and Roman civilizations are still more impressive...because they really existed, as opposed to being the product of an author sitting at his typewriter. Don't mean to be anal retentive about this...

<i></i>

No, that's a good point MW. Who knows if it would even be possible for that span to occur in reality?

The scope certainly is impressive though. But the relative ease with which it fell in the end (suggesting an inherent instability actually) makes me wonder.

OK, the spice was a big factor. Being able to destroy it kept the rest of the Landsraat off his back.

--A



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A sense of the sardonic preserves a man from believing in his own pretensions. -The Sayings Of Maud'Dib<i></i>