Ahira's Hangar

"There is no escape - we pay for the violence of our ancestors."
~ from "The Collected Sayings of Muad'Dib" by the Princess Irulan

I find that opening quote so fatalistic and depressing. Do the people of the Duniverse truly believe that things cannot ever be changed, that new paths cannot ever be chosen?

In this chapter we see how the Atreides are tearing themselves apart with mutual suspician and from the stresses of a new and very dangerous environment.

Duncan Idaho comes back in the middle of the night following the big banquet, drunk as a skunk. He wakes up the Lady Jessica with his yelling. And from what he says, Jessica figures out that she is the current main suspect as the highly placed Harkonnen spy. Needless to say, this bothers her greatly.

She has a show down with Thufir Hawat.

Ironically enough, Jessica says that the only top Atreides aide that she has not fully investigated and found clear is Yueh. And Hawat says that the spy cannot be Yueh, because of his conditioning.

Jessica reveals some of her Bene Gesserit powers to Hawat, a voice of command and the power of coercion. She points out that she would have the powers to make Leto do whatever she wants him to do, and to even make him think that those actions would be his own idea. But she will not do it. And she says that if she unleashed her powers on Leto's enemies that would weaken him and make him dependent on her. And for the Bene Gesserit to use these powers too often would make them targets, and lead to their own destruction.

Thufir leaves, filled with a great admiration for Jessica, but still not convinced of her innocence. And he does not know that she is pregnant with Leto's daughter...

A couple of things here - does it ever say anywhere exactly what the conditioning of doctors to make them (supposedly) incorruptiable consists of?

And what kind of a sick place has to worry about doctors being murderous traitors to their patients?

And why do the Bene Gesserit so rarely use their powers? Why do they not intervene in wars, for example? To protect innocent civilians? Does their long term outlook strip away some of their basic humanity in that they allow a lot of suffering that might have been stopped?

Wow, that was quick Duchess. Great post.

I'm not sure that the quote means that, I have tended to read it more along the lines of cause and effect...the violence of our ancestors makes the next generations hate them, until eventually that hatred is manifested as violence against us.

The Atreides blindness to the possibility of Yueh as a traitor has always been something that struck me as odd. For people who aren't supposed to make asusmptions, that's a fairly big one.

Nowhere does it ever say how exactly they condition these doctors, I assume a "hypnotic" brain-washing type of thing myself. But just because nobody had ever broken it doesn't mean nobody could.

As for the doctors killing their patients, well, they're talking about high-ranking patients...and doctors would be perfect assassins.

The BG have lost their basic humanity. Or rather, as you suggest, they have put aside individual compassion in favour of a long-term "improvement" by their lights at least.

The suffering of a person or a planet is inconsequential in the scale which the BG operate on, because all things will pass.

--A

It's been a while since I read Dune, so I started flipping through the pages after reading some of the excellent discussions going on here!

I remember that this chapter sort of opened my eyes to the power of the BG. We experience the power of the Reverend Mother in Paul's encounter at the beginning of the book. However, we never see the powers of a "typical" BG. There were plenty of times when Jessica thought the talk, but never actually talked the talk. She would tell the reader that with a single word she could make Leto marry her. She could make a person do anything with the Voice. She thought about it quite a bit, but damn I wanted to see her do it!

Until this chapter I could only envision Jessica as a work mule for the Reverend Mother. The RM handled Jessica like a little girl (I know this is perfectly acceptable in the BG). But after the Mother's visit, Jessica's stature seems somehow diminished. She second guesses her role in the BG. She is unsure of Paul's true nature. She is fearful of the future. She knows she has powers, yet her character is filled with doubt.

For me, all of this changes when Jessica controls Hawat with a word. He knows he is helpless as does she. Hawat is a mentat. He needs to be in control of himself in order to process information and formulate ideas so that he can give what is universally accepted as the best advice to whomever he serves. When Jessica works him like a puppet, my perception of her changed instantly.

The long-term goals of the BG aside, I can understand why these women do not use their powers more often. As Jessica explains (at some point she does), they would surely be hunted down and exterminated. It seems to be in their best interest to subtly manipulate to get what they desire. As long as they whisper a word of encouragement here and a word of advice there, they're sure to get what they want in the end.

Also, I don't remember too much about Duncan Idaho in this book. I agree Duchess, the stress of relocating to Arrakis was taking its toll on the Atreides. Duncan especially, who was not only the Atreides' Freman connection, but also was assigned to keep tabs on Jessica. Poor guy, talk about pressure!

Yes, Jessica is awesome in this chapter. She lays down the gauntlet. Poor old Thufir...I pity him, but kind of annoyed at him, too. Thufir, you bloody idiot, just listen to the woman for a change.

Regarding the dubious Imperial conditioning...yeah, like I said elsewhere, it's pretty much a joke in my mind - a convenient thing Herbert made up for the sake of plot without really explaining it. I mean, the Harkonnens have the good doctor's wife and that's all it takes to break his conditioning? Weak. Real weak. I don't mean to diminish the suffering his wife must have endured under the Harkonnens, of course.

I think this whole era of humankind in the Duniverse has lost a lot of its humanity, not just the Bene Gesserit. It's cold, it's dark, it's not very friendly. But anyway, I agree that in ruthlessly pursuing their long-term, abstract goal or vision, the BG see their fellow human beings as just numbers to be manipulated, not as people with their own hopes and dreams. It's the stuff of cults. Fanatical religious agendas. Political ideology. Making or letting people suffer in the name of a "higher" purpose. Of course, the common people don't have a say in that purpose. It's "higher" only because it's issued from above by those who have power, not because of any intrinsic "nobleness."

Yeah, one minute she's in charge, next she's falling apart. And there's no "hope" about it. From now on, you will make a point of dropping past.

--A