Ahira's Hangar

David Zindell's Neverness, A Requiem for Homo Sapiens and all things Science Fiction and Fantasy
It is currently Fri Mar 29, 2024 8:25 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 3 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Zahir's Unanswered Questions
PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:29 pm 
Offline
Master Pilot

Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 2:23 am
Posts: 3363
Due to the size of Zahir's avatar and the fact that it's now inactive I've copied this topic's three replies to this thread.


Tolkien created such a rich and varied secondary world, those of us who've really delved into his stuff are left frustrated by a few unanswered questions. Two come to my mind.

Celeborn Who is he, really? It seems crystal clear from Tolkien's notes that he himself never quite decided. In the published form of The Silmarillion is the version I prefer--that his is a Moriquendi of Doriath whom Galadriel met when she came to Middle Earth. One gets the impression that he had a tempering effect upon her, in that this proud princess of the Noldor royal house grew to love a Dark Elf, one who already knew the world where she longed to found realms where she could rule. Yet as his wife, she never claimed a royal title, not even in Lothlorien where they did indeed rule and despite her being the only member of the Noldor Royal House left in Middle Earth. I simply don't care for his later ideas, captured in Unfinished Tales where Celeborn is from Valinor, he and Galadriel having nothing to do with Feanor's rebellion. Bleh.

Orcs What are they, really? Even Tolkien evidently could not decide, and it disturbed him that he'd allowed his lifelong interest in goblins lead him into creating a sentient race that were inherently evil. Frankly, this is the most repulsive idea in the whole canon. Tolkien didn't want to give Morgoth the ability to infuse himself into an entire race, and in fact wasn't even sure from which race Orcs were bred--Elves or Men? His earliest notes consistently refer to them as the "People of Hate," which is certainly the impression given. They are a race consumed by hatred. Yet how they could exist is something Tolkien himself never quite figured out.

Any unanswered questions that grab your imagination?


Duchess of Malfi
Lady Scryer
Posts: 4462
(8/21/05 9:54 am)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: Unanswered Questions
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've always wondered about orcs myself. Do they sexually reproduce, or are they spawned in some way as the uruchai in the movies? If they do reproduce sexually, do they have any affection for their mates? Their young? How do any of them survive to adulthood given the violence that is seemingly a part of their make up?
******************************************************

Our lives are the songs that sing the universe into existence.~David Zindell


MsMaryMalone
Lord Pilot
Posts: 708
(11/8/05 3:49 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: Unanswered Questions
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I simply don't care for his later ideas, captured in Unfinished Tales where Celeborn is from Valinor, he and Galadriel having nothing to do with Feanor's rebellion. Bleh.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I totally agree. In a similar way, I was bothered when someone in another discussion I was in claimed, based on one of the later collections of posthumously published JRRT notes, that the elf Glorfindel in LOTR is the same Glorfindel who was killed by a Balrog in the attack on Gondolin in the First Age. There is no reason to believe it's the same elf "come back to life", as opposed to two elves with the same name.
"Does the walker choose the path, or the path the walker?"

taraswizard
Rouge Demon Hunter
Posts: 785
(11/24/05 1:44 am)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: Unanswered Questions
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Glorfindel. According to the Tolkien; The illustrated Encyclopedia by David Day. Glorfindel of Rivendell is a diffferent Elf than Glorfindel of Gondolin who fought a Balrog in ca. 511 of the First Age. This same volume says that Glorfindel of Rivendell lead a Elf army in the battle of Fornost in 1975 of the Third Age, and that battle resulted in the destruction of the realm of the Witch-king of Angmar. This discussion regarding the Glorfindels is affirmed in The complete guide to Middle-Earth by Robert Foster.

Neither book is clear about the situation with Celeborn.
taraswizard
Allan Rosewarne N9SQT/WDX6HQV
Chicago area
W/T forever, always
Plan C - planc.bravepages.com/main.html

Edited by: taraswizard at: 11/24/05 1:59 am

MsMaryMalone
Lord Pilot
Posts: 718
(11/25/05 12:10 pm)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: Unanswered Questions
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for the reference about Glorfindel, tara. That was interesting and it confirms what I thought to be the case.

I have to say that I prefer the Silmarillion version of who Celeborn is. But maybe that's just could I read that story first, years before any other theories of his origins came up.
"Does the walker choose the path, or the path the walker?"

Jay Tomio
Pilot
Posts: 3
(12/31/05 11:27 am)
Reply | Edit | Del Re: Unanswered Questions
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Did I miss something? lorfindel's spirit was returnd by Manods as chronciled in HoME wasn't it?

In The People of Middle Earth in he chapter Last Writings' it is explained how Tolkien decided to combine the two characters into one:


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When did Glorfindel return to Middle-earth? This must probably have occurred before the end of the Second Age, and the 'Change of the World' and the Drowning of Númenor, after which no living embodied creature, 'humane' or of lesser kinds, could return from the Blessed Realm which had been 'removed from the Circles of the World'. This was according to a general ordinance proceeding from Eru Himself; and though, until the end of the Third Age, when Eru decreed that the Dominion of Men must begin, Manwë could be supposed to have received the permission of Eru to make an exception in his case, and to have devised some means for the transportation of Glorfindel to Middle-earth, this is improbable and would make Glorfindel of greater power and importance than seems fitting.

We may then best suppose that Glorfindel returned during the Second Age, before the 'shadow' fell on Númenor, and while the Númenóreans were welcomed by the Eldar as powerful allies. His return must have been for the purpose of strengthening Gil-galad and Elrond, when the growing evil of the intentions of Sauron were at last perceived by them. It might, therefore, have been as early as Second Age 1200, when Sauron came in person to Lindon, and attempted to deceive Gil-galad, but was rejected and dismissed †. But it may have been, perhaps more probably, as late as c.1600, the Year of Dread, when Barad-dur was completed and the One Ring forged, and Celebrimbor at last became aware of the trap into which he had fallen. For in 1200, though he was filled with anxiety, Gil-galad still felt strong and able to treat Sauron with contempt ‡. Also at that time his Númenórean allies were beginning to make strong permanent havens for their great ships, and also many of them had actually begun to dwell there permanently. In 1600 it became clear to all the leaders of Elves and Men (and Dwarves) that war was inevitable against Sauron, now unmasked as a new Dark Lord. They therefore began to prepare for his assault; and no doubt urgent messages and prayers asking for help were received in Númenor (and in Valinor)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Did I miss somethng?


The Bodhisattva

Fantasybookspot.com

My interview this week: Kelly Link



*****
Before, you are wise; after, you are wise. In between you are otherwise.
Fravashi saying (from the formularies of Osho the Fool) <i>Edited by: danlo60 at: 9/27/06 9:31 am
</i>


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Zahir's Unanswered Questions
PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:13 pm 
Offline
Pilot

Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:13 pm
Posts: 1
I always liked the idea that Glorfindel came back to ME on one of the Wizard's ships.
Maybe even with Gandalf.

And I too prefer the published Sil version of Celeborn rather than Tolkien's later notes.

And the whole Orc thing....why can't they just be animals that Morgoth perverted and increased their intelligence?
Why the worry about creation and if their souls go to Mandos?
There's no debate about Trolls.
Couldn't Orcs be the same type of thing?

Plus, for the record I prefer the term goblin to orc.
<i></i>


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Zahir's Unanswered Questions
PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 4:33 am 
Offline
The UnTitled
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2006 3:54 am
Posts: 2879
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa
Welcome to the Hangar HLT. Nice to have another Watcher join us.

For no reason I can put my finger on, I prefer Orc to goblin. Goblin just sounds so...base. I tend to think of them as two seperate things really...the goblins smaller and more weaselly, the Orcs more warrior-like.

--A ____________________________________

A sense of the sardonic preserves a man from believing in his own pretensions. -The Sayings Of Maud'Dib<i></i>


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 3 posts ] 

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group