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Ahira's Hangar • View topic - Students Being Taught to Fight School Shooters

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 Post subject: Students Being Taught to Fight School Shooters
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:28 pm 
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Lady Scryer
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Quote:
Students Trained to Fight School Shooters

By MIKE VON FREMD, ABCNews.com

(Oct. 18) - The Independent School District of Burleson, Texas, just south of Ft. Worth is the first in the country to adopt a policy of training students to immediately fight back and use their advantage in numbers to take tactical control if a gunman enters their classroom.

A group of Texas security experts with a company called "Response Options" has made instructional video tapes showing a gunman bursting into a classroom and being swarmed by students. The instructors tell students to throw their books, book bags, desk and chairs using everything and anything to disrupt and take down a gunman. Robin Browne, a major with the British Army, helped design the training course and says it is necessary for students and teachers to throw themselves into the line of fire.

"This is not a burglar. This is not a bank robber," Browne said. "This is someone who has come onto school property with the express intention of using a deadly weapon to hurt and dominate people who cannot necessarily defend themselves." A person who enters a school, Browne said, "is in the same category as serial killers."

"We are dealing with a predator here and a predator, when he is offered prey and the prey gives in will take advantage of that prey," he said. "What we are teaching here is for the children to not allow the predator to take control. … They actually become the superior the dominant party in the room, and it is actually the gunman who becomes the prey."

A Lesson From Columbine and Other School Shootings

Browne says waiting for police to take control is a deadly mistake and says that 15 people who died and 24 were injured at Columbine as police struggled to take control. By the time police responded the hostage at the Amish schoolhouse in Nickel Mines, Penn., students and school officials had lost control and ultimately, five girls died and the gunman, Charles Roberts, killed himself.

"If you have got 15 sixth, seventh and eighth graders, they can be an incredibly effective weapon," Browne said.


Burleson has 14 schools and 8500 students and the independent school district hopes to have every student trained to respond to a gunman by the end of 2007.

The program costs about $15 per child and so far parents, teachers and students have expressed their support for this take charge policy. "I think the policy is really smart, it is just like 9/11 when they were on the plane," said high school senior Terry Lucas.

Endangering Students?

The students are instructed to respond the instant they see a threat.

"It doesn't give the guy any time to try to collect his thoughts, you just storm him and start hitting him with stuff," said one student, Ray Longo. So far parents, teachers and students support Burleson's take charge policy. But outside of Burleson, Texas safety experts are appalled at the notion of students being trained to storm a person with a weapon.

"When it comes to fighting an attacker even SWAT teams have a hard time knowing what to do. How can we expect kids to know what to do," said Ronald Stephens, executive director of National School Safety. Stephens also says the child who leads the charge is most vulnerable.

"Rushing a gunman with scissors or staplers or a book might cause a gunman to shoot that person on the spot," he said.

Browne concedes that his program of fighting back carries risk. He admits that the first student to swarm an attacker may pay with his or her life. However, he believes the risk may be worth it to save other lives.

"He won't be able to shoot the fourth, fifth, eighth, twentieth or thirtieth student," he said.


Oct. 18, 2006


Copyright 2006 ABCNEWS.com


My first thought on reading this was "What the hell?"

My second thought on reading this was "What the hell?"

My third thought on reading this was...well, you get the general idea.

If someone comes into a school with a gun, they might shoot up the place and kill a lot of people, and that is a tragedy. On the other hand...they might not. In one recent case, the person shot the ceiling but not any people before surrendering.

If the gun carrying person is attacked by a bunch of students - wouldn't that pretty much guaranty that he or she will start shooting people? ******************************************************

Our lives are the songs that sing the universe into existence.~David Zindell
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 Post subject: Re: Students Being Taught to Fight School Shooters
PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 5:03 am 
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The UnTitled
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Hahaha.

I give the guy credit for having the balls to say "Sure...1 or 2 of them will probably get shot, but it'll save the rest of them."

Yeah Duchess, it will cause them to shoot. But then, I don't think you can count on the shooter not being likely to. The one who fired into the ceiling was a 13-14 year old kid...with an AK of all things!! He wouldn't have been able to fire it for long.

No, that's only one out of how many where kids have been shot. The chances of somebody not shooting if they go into a school all loaded uop etc. must be pretty small.

Throwing stuff is a good idea, because the hands instinctively come up to protect the head/eyes. I would imagine the best thing would be for people up front, but to the left and/or right to throw things...that would make whoever both turn and hopefully raise their hands. Then when distracted, the ones in the front centre (or whatever is closest) rush him.

Crazy stuff..having to teach our kids to fight off crazy people with guns. @#%$.

--A ____________________________________

A sense of the sardonic preserves a man from believing in his own pretensions. -The Sayings Of Maud'Dib<i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: Students Being Taught to Fight School Shooters
PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 5:52 am 
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Yeah, the guy might have balls, but I bet you could bet your balls (or ovaries as the case might be) that he does not have a kid in that public school district - and that he would not want his kid to be one of the ones sacrificing himself for the others if he did.
******************************************************

Our lives are the songs that sing the universe into existence.~David Zindell
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 Post subject: Re: Students Being Taught to Fight School Shooters
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 6:17 am 
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The UnTitled
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I dunno...the needs of the many and all that. Maybe he'd be proud if it was his kid in the front line. *shrug*

--A ____________________________________

A sense of the sardonic preserves a man from believing in his own pretensions. -The Sayings Of Maud'Dib<i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: Students Being Taught to Fight School Shooters
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 2:54 pm 
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I don't like the idea. I'm not saying it doesn't have its merits, but... The chances of any particular school facing this situation are incredibly small, but the principle of training our kids to attack without hesitation is moderately disturbing.

That, and I seriously doubt it would be effective. You can't just show a kid a video and expect him or her to overcome instinctual fear, lack of experience, and so forth. In the military, we drilled for these kinds of situations repeatedly. People, trained adults, still freeze or screw up in *training* situations.

I really don't want my kid to be taught this kind of thing in school, and I don't want my kid to be taught the *fear* of this kind of thing in school.

I saw a similar initiative on the news the other day with arming the teachers. Jesus, what a bad idea. I mean, the first thing that comes to mind is a former teacher of mine who was fired for stabbing an unruly student with a pencil. And y'know, when I go into a convenience store or wherever and see a cop, the first thing I see is that gun on his hip, and I think, 'Well, that's kinda intimidating.' Followed by, 'Wonder if I could grab it?' Maybe that's just me, though. I always have a similar urge to pull fire alarms. ________________
I wanna feel the metamorphosis and cleansing I've endured within my shadow. Change is coming. Now is my time. Listen to my muscle memory. Contemplate what I've been clinging to. -Tool, "Forty-Six & Two" <i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: Students Being Taught to Fight School Shooters
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:32 am 
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The UnTitled
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Nice to see you around Syl.

Yeah, good points.

Weighing the "fear" that would be taught to children against the probability of it happening to any given school, maybe the potential return wouldn't be worth it.

And I certainly see your point about the questionable effectiveness, although of course, as with trained adults, you never know until it happens.

--A
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A sense of the sardonic preserves a man from believing in his own pretensions. -The Sayings Of Maud'Dib<i></i>


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 Post subject: Re: Students Being Taught to Fight School Shooters
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:17 am 
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Here is a different take on it:

Quote:
Candidate proposes using textbooks as shields
POSTED: 10:10 a.m. EDT, October 20, 2006
Adjust font size:
OKLAHOMA CITY, Oklahoma (AP) -- A candidate for state superintendent of schools said Thursday he wants thick used textbooks placed under every student's desk so they can use them for self-defense during school shootings.

"People might think it's kind of weird, crazy," said Republican Bill Crozier of Union City, Oklahoma, a teacher and former Air Force security officer. "It is a practical thing; it's something you can do. It might be a way to deflect those bullets until police go there."

Crozier and a group of aides produced a 10-minute video Tuesday in which they shoot math, language and telephone books with a variety of weapons, including an AK-47 assault rifle and a 9mm pistol. The rifle bullet penetrated two books, including a calculus textbook, but the pistol bullet was stopped by a single book.

Crozier said the demonstration shows that a student could effectively use a textbook as protection in a school shooting.

An Oklahoma Highway Patrol spokesman was skeptical.

"He probably needs to take a look at some ballistics tests," Lt. Pete Norwood said. "There are some rifles not even Webster's Dictionary will stop."

Crozier said he got the idea after the April 1999 shootings at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colorado. The idea gained momentum after a December 1999 school shooting in Fort Gibson, Oklahoma, when a 13-year-old boy wounded five fellow students. Crozier noted that a bullet lodged in books in one student's backpack.

"You don't know where they're going to happen. You don't know when they're going to happen. There ought to be some kind of plan to react to it," Crozier said.

Six girls and a principal were killed in a recent string of shootings in Colorado, Wisconsin and at an Amish schoolhouse in Pennsylvania.

Crozier faces incumbent Sandy Garrett, a Democrat, in the November 7 general election. A spokeswoman for Garrett's campaign, Kimberly Hawkins Sanders, said Garrett had no comment on Crozier's idea.

Copyright 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

******************************************************

Our lives are the songs that sing the universe into existence.~David Zindell
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 Post subject: Re: Students Being Taught to Fight School Shooters
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:54 am 
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The UnTitled
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Hell, why don't we just lock every stundent into one of those transparant bullet-proof boxes that high-profile witness/accused get? The teachers will move from class to class, and they'll all be let out at the end of the day.

--A ____________________________________

A sense of the sardonic preserves a man from believing in his own pretensions. -The Sayings Of Maud'Dib<i></i>


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