Ahira's Hangar

What amazes me is the number of people who ever thought it was.

People often say, "But we beat Germany and Japan and the war ended and that was that."

And I keep saying that it's not the same. not only are you not fighting a nation-state, but the psychology of the europeans was much different. Those bits of land had been fought over for centuries, and the peasants has still been peasants, still had duties. They didn't care which King or noble or government they were ruled by, "here comes the new boss, same as the old boss."

In the middle east, these tribal societies never gave up. It didn't matter who their government/whatever were, they always fought them. The Turks, the British, each other, Saddam, now the Americans.

Quote:Kissinger:Iraq Victory No Longer Possible

London - Former US secretary of state Henry Kissinger said military victory is no longer possible in Iraq, in a television interview broadcast on Sunday.

In a wide ranging interview on BBC television Kissinger presented a bleak vision of Iraq, saying the US government must enter dialogue with Iraq's regional neighbours - including Iran - if any progress is to be made in the region.

"If you mean, by 'military victory,' an Iraqi government that can be established and whose writ runs across the whole country, that gets the civil war under control and sectarian violence under control in a time period that the political processes of the democracies will support, I don't believe that is possible," he said on the BBC's Sunday AM program.

But Kissinger warned against a rapid withdrawal of troops, saying it could lead to "disastrous consequences," destabilising Iraq's neighbours and causing a long lasting conflict.

"If you withdraw all the forces without any international understanding and without any even partial solution of some of the problems, civil war in Iraq will take on even more violent forms and achieve dimensions that are probably exceeding those that brought us into Yugoslavia with military force," he said.

"All the surrounding countries - especially those that have large Shiite populations - will be, in all likelihood, destabilised," he said.

Kissinger has been advising US President George W Bush on Iraq.

"A dramatic collapse of Iraq - whatever we think about how the situation was created - would have disastrous consequences for which we would pay for many years and which would bring us back, one way or another, into the region."

Kissinger whose views have also been sought by the Iraqi Study Group, led by former secretary of state James Baker III, called for an international conference bringing together the permanent members of the United Nations Security Council, Iraq's neighbours and regional powers like India and Pakistan to work out a way forward for the region.

And said that the process would have to include Iran, with which the United States must enter into dialogue.

Asked if it was time for Bush and Prime Minister Tony Blair to change course, he responded: "I think we have to redefine the course, but I don't think that the alternative is between military victory, as defined previously, or total withdrawal.

"The art of leadership will be to find a course that will protect our values, our interests and the possibility of some progress in the area without simply blindly following a strategy which - however reasonable it was when adopted - has failed to achieve the objectives that were defined in a timeframe that our political processes would support."

--A ____________________________________

A sense of the sardonic preserves a man from believing in his own pretensions. -The Sayings Of Maud'Dib<i></i>

Since the supposed reasons for the invasion have changed so many times, it is hard to know what the goals at the time of the invasion even were.

If you do not even know what the goals were at the time of the invasion, how on earth can victory be possible? How can you fight, when you do not even know why you are fighting? How can you win, when you do not even know what sort of victory you are trying to achieve would be?

At this point, I do not even think a stable central government is possible in Iraq.

Possibly the best solution might be a partition of the country for the various ethnic groups, such as the one between India and Pakistan - though that has led to wars and plenty of ethnic violence in and of itself.

It is all such a mess there is no good answer, no easy way. ******************************************************

Our lives are the songs that sing the universe into existence.~David Zindell
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Although everybody wants to avoid it, I think that that partition will be the end result. And that will, as is feared, and as you mention has happened before, create troubles of its own.

Nope...the instant US troops rolled into Iraq, the possibility for easy answers disappeared.

--A ____________________________________

A sense of the sardonic preserves a man from believing in his own pretensions. -The Sayings Of Maud'Dib<i></i>

agreed--but Cheney and Haliburton seem happy. *****
Before, you are wise; after, you are wise. In between you are otherwise.
Fravashi saying (from the formularies of Osho the Fool) <i></i>

But that's such an easy answer danlo. My problem is it's easy for me to believe that this was all some scam.

And the very ease with which I believe it makes me naturally suspicious of the idea.

--A ____________________________________

A sense of the sardonic preserves a man from believing in his own pretensions. -The Sayings Of Maud'Dib<i></i>

Don't look at me. I came of age in Watergate and so hate and distrust all politicians. ******************************************************

Our lives are the songs that sing the universe into existence.~David Zindell
<i></i>

A sensible precaution Duchess.

--A ____________________________________

A sense of the sardonic preserves a man from believing in his own pretensions. -The Sayings Of Maud'Dib<i></i>